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Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, that we do not want to talk ourselves into a situation where European defence co-operation goes further than we want it to. But the problem for some of us is that, while we want desperately to believe the Government when they say that there is absolutely no question of building a European army or a European rapid reaction force, unfortunately other people in Europe of great stature and power are saying something rather different. They are saying that what is being constructed is a European army.
I wish that the noble Baroness would absolutely assure us that she is right and that all these other potentates in Europe are completely and utterly wrong; that there is no prospect of a European rapid reaction force being set up, nor a European army; that this is simply about European co-operation which will be under the control of the British Government and, in the ultimate case, the British Parliament; and furthermore that we have the troops and the resources to contribute to such a force anyway.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Howell, was quite right to quote me from Committee stage when I said that there was a great deal of confusion about defence in the Nice treaty and indeed we have seen that demonstrated again here today.
Let me start from his point about a rapid reaction force. That is not a standing force. It is a capability rather than a standing force. It is a capability which can be called upon. As the noble Lord almost implied in his remarksand I hope he will forgive me if I put the point to himthere is no question of there being a group of service peopleArmy, Navy or Air Forcewaiting somewhere to be called upon. It is a capability which can be produced from the member countries when it is decided that it is needed. The noble Lord said that it was not ready and waiting, but I would remind him that some 104 out of the 144 capabilities which were specified in the headline goal have now reached the point where they might be called upon.
The noble Lord of course was quite right to remind us that the arrangements for the European security and defence policy are not in the Treaty of Nice, and again he was right that a declaration attached to the treaty makes clear that the treaty does not need to come into force for the defence arrangements agreed by the EU member states to become operational. That is, I hope, common ground between us. I hope what is also common ground between us is the removal of references to the WEU in the treaty because they no longer reflect reality.
The other new element in the treaty is the one to which the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, referred, which is the reference to a new political and security committee which is already up and running and to which the Council will now be able to delegate the running of a crisis management operation. The committee is referred to in Article 25 and it is one of the lynchpins of the CFSP and the ESDP. It is a permanent committee of national officials based in Brussels. It is chaired by a representative of the Presidency and its role is to monitor issues that come within CFSP and then to make recommendations to the Council on action. It is also being charged with monitoring the implementation of policies already agreed and overseeing the work of the military committee, the committee for civilian aspects of civilian crisis management and various other working groups. I hope that that answers the points that the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, raised.
From some of the points raised, not only by your Lordships but by others, it is hard to imagine that somewhere in the treaty there really is not an article which sets up a permanent euro army under the control of all sorts of people, including some foreign nationals, which either forces our Armed Forces into campaigns which we do not want to be in or refuses to allow us to participate in campaigns that we do want to be in.
The European security and defence policy is really about improving the military capabilities of European nations to conduct certain EU-led military operations. Let me reiterate, those operations are humanitarian; they are peacekeeping; they are crisis management; and they are operations in which NATO as a wholethat is, all NATO acting togetherdecides that it does not want to be engaged.
The ESDP is making a real difference by obliging member states to consider their own capacity for action. That must be good for everybody who believes in strong defence. When I had the honour of being the Minister for Defence Procurement, on numerous occasions I received many complaints about the inability of our European partners to put their money where their mouth was over some military capability. This focuses them on precisely building up that capability. Of course member states have committed to overcoming the important shortfalls that have been identifiedshortfalls that are discussed regularly in your Lordships' Housesuch as the shortfall in strategic airlift. The capabilities improvement conference in November was a further and critical step in that process.
One of the most common objections to ESDP is that there is somehow a confusion or a conflict in the command and control structures that we are setting up. There really are no rival military structures to NATO. We have said that, and to avoid any doubt that anything has changed, I repeat it to your Lordships. Where NATO is not engaged, the EU may decide to lead an operation. The EU will clearly exercise political control, as the committee which I have just referred to would indicate, over any operations that it leads but it will use NATO's military operational tools or it will use national tools. Again, we have discussed the role of DSACEUR, the role of SHAPE, or the role of a national capability such as our own PJHQ. There is no stand-off here between NATO and the European Union. There is no rival operational structure.
The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, asked me again for some reassurance on what he quoted to us from European politicians and asked whether I could really give him that assurance. Perhaps I may I quote what the European Council agreed at Nice. It is not in the treaty. It is in the report on the European security and defence policy. That report was approved by all heads of state and government at Nice. The noble Lord said, "Here is what a European politician is saying", but I ask him to look at what the heads of government, the heads of state said, what they wrote down and what they all agreed to. They said:
It is explicit in giving the very assurance that the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, sought of me. He asked me; I assured him. But somehow in the back of my mind I have a doubt that however explicit I am and whatever I can produce that is explicit from the leaders of the governments involved, nothing will convince the noble Lord on this point.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: I really am most obliged to the noble Baroness for giving way and indeed for the full manner in which she answered my question. Can she go a little further and say whether the statement she has just made is a complete repudiation of the statement made by Signor Prodi on Friday 4th February in an interview with the Independent newspaper, that you could call it what you liked but as far as he was concerned it was a European army?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, I say to the noble Lord that the heads of government say that it does not involve the establishment of a European army. It is explicit. That is what I believe to be true. I have said that unequivocally. This is hardly the first time I have done so but I say it again to all your Lordships; and that is what was signed up to in the documents which are not in the treaty but in the report on the European security and defence policy.
We believe that the defence policy that we are putting in place will be good for Britain, good for Europe, good for NATO and good for the United States. That is why the United States so strongly supports it.
The noble Lord, Lord Waddington, referred to the action in Afghanistan and the reticence of some of our European partners about the bombing. The US bombing of Afghanistan was not a Petersberg task. Everything that we are talking about relates to Petersberg tasks. The bombing was not humanitarian action or crisis management. The International Security and Assistance Force now going in could be described as a Petersberg task. It is for individual countries to decide, through a coalition of the willing, whether they want to participate in it.
The noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, returned to what we mean by a Petersberg task. Petersberg tasks cover humanitarian conflict and peace keeping. The noble Lord asked what we mean by peace makingan issue that we have discussed on many occasions.
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