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Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, I accept that she wants to leave the questions on the arrest warrant to further deliberation and perhaps even the presence at the Dispatch Box of her noble friend Lord Rooker. However, I asked whether the new European police force, Europol, will have immunity. It is already in the treaty. Article 29, paragraph 2, indent 1 states all the marvellous objectives of standing up to crime in the European Union which are to be achieved through,
- "closer co-operation between police forces, customs authorities and other competent authorities in the Member States, both directly and, through the European police office (Europol), in accordance with the provisions of Articles 30 and 32".
Lord Acton: My Lords, is not the rule that there should be short questions for elucidation? Is not the noble Lord going a little beyond the rule?
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, that must be for the opinion of the House.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, perhaps I can reassure the noble Lord. Nothing in the establishing of Eurojust trespasses on the Europol issues which the noble Lord has raised. I shall do my best to put some more flesh on the bones for him, if that is possible at this stage. I understand why the noble Lord is so concerned. After all, this has been the subject of a great deal of discussion in your Lordships' House in the context of our anti-terrorism legislation. However, this is an entirely different issue. That is what I sought to do in stressing the structure of Eurojust and the purposes for which it is being created.
Lord Waddington: My Lords, does the Minister accept that it is wholly unacceptable that a person should be extradited from this country to meet charges for offences which do not exist in this country?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, these are policy issues which are being discussed at present in relation to the legislation which my right honourable friend will bring forward on the European arrest warrant. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, will bear with me. I am not an expert on that issue; I am sure that he would not expect me to be. It is a matter which we know causes concern. Together with my colleagues, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, I have listened carefully to the points raised on the anti-terrorism legislation. Both the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and I took that legislation through your Lordships' House. We know that this is a matter of great concern. However, I cannot say to the noble Lord that in every single instance the United Kingdom Government would be in a position of not wanting to bring forward that legislation. The noble Lord will have the opportunity to debate that fully. Nothing that we are discussing here will prejudice his ability to do that.
Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, I realise that we have strayed a little into policy issues and, indeed, debates which lie ahead, although they are in this field of the third pillar on justice and home affairs matters. As the noble Baroness sought to explain in answer to our questions, a Bill will be introduced which will presumably contain matters which have been decided—if that is the right word—by prerogative at a Council of Ministers operating in the JAHA
framework. We, in the two Houses of Parliament, will be asked to accept it. It will be a treaty matter which we cannot change.There remains more than a vague worry. These are vastly important areas. I refer not only to the coming debates on the common arrest warrant, but to judicial co-operation which is promoted and developed by the whole Eurojust concept. There is a worry that such matters are decided in ways which do not give our Parliament adequate say early enough over what is happening. I know that we have a scrutiny reserve procedure. However, I am not sure that we should not be thinking in terms of even earlier debates on ideas which then give birth to legislative instruments and proposals before they come back for scrutiny reserve to this House, before in turn they go for approval—debate in the House—or they become law.
In the third pillar area of inter-governmental co-operation, we lack adequate national parliamentary involvement in the way that such schemes are developed. We shall have to come back to that matter and give it a good deal more thought in the future.
Having said that, the noble Baroness has sought to answer—she has not done so completely—a number of our questions. In the light of the need to make progress, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Howell of Guildford moved Amendment No. 7:
- Page 1, line 9, at beginning insert "Article 1 (other than paragraph 11, revising Article 43 of the Treaty on European Union),"
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I can deal with this matter briefly because we discussed it fully in Committee. Our objection, the noble Baroness and your Lordships will recall, was to the qualified majority voting element which has been brought into the enhanced co-operation procedure; also the fact that it appears that at Nice the Government agreed to the enhanced co-operation procedure and to the abandonment of the veto on it despite the important principles involved if a smaller number of nations are to go forward with a certain project without getting anything in return. So we had that debate.
What remains is a query as to how the enhanced co-operation idea, which is very important in relation to the future structure of the Union and the way it works, is getting on. Further, perhaps the noble Baroness can tell us what proposals are being considered whereby we in this country might try some enhanced co-operation? Have we any ideas for taking seven or more other member countries towards certain goals that we have for the European Union? The other day the Prime Minister said that the European Union "is going Britain's way". I have seen reports that at the spring Council in Barcelona it will all be beneficial for Britain because the European Union is shaping our way, a union of states, not quite a Europe des patries but a union of states rather than a federal structure. That is what he said. But in order for that to happen we must see various aspects of enhanced co-operation vigorously developed.
I should like to hear what the Foreign and Commonwealth Office policymakers are beginning to think about this matter. Those ideas can be shared with us, with discretion. I do not want to feel all the time that in the Quai d'Orsay they are brewing up initiatives while our Foreign and Commonwealth Office is left running behind. That is the impression that one gets over the years. The clever French, particularly in the Quai d'Orsay, are very good at creating new initiatives, some of them absolutely questionable but some of them ingenious, for various forms of co-operation and further integration, and we are left on the defensive, saying, "No, no".
Another question that is worth asking at this point is: can enhanced co-operation operate in a sense negatively? Can we co-operate with a number of other countries in not going ahead with certain propositions that are being put forward in the name of the Union as a whole? I hope that this does not sound too trivial. Could we opt out of the new directive on "lumpy sauces"? That is the question of how many vegetables one needs in a sauce before it ceases to be a sauce? Could we opt out of the directive on dumping redundant fridges, which is coming in much too quickly and which will cause considerable problems in this country? Could we get some enhanced co-operation with other member states in avoiding some of the ill-thought out propositions that occasionally come out of the European institutional machine?
I hope that those questions do not sound frivolous. This is a very important area on which there was much debate before Nice and on which there will be much debate in the future. We should like to know how it is working. That was my purpose in moving the amendment. I beg to move.
6.15 p.m.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, the EEC was set up to deal with post-war problems. The problems facing Europe today, following rebuilding, reconciliation and economic growth, are very different problems. What has made the European Union a success over all these years is its ability to develop and change—its flexibility. But its ability to apply that flexibility and to make effective decisions is tested every time more member states join. In an EU that is expanding in the way that it is, it is increasingly difficult to get agreement to move ahead in all areas with all member states, as we know.
It is sensible that we look at ways where groups of countries can take action where some others cannot, do not want to, or are not ready to. But we are clear that this should not challenge the overall authority of the treaties governing all member states. The aim of enhanced co-operation is to create a mechanism aimed at facilitating effective decision-making in a Union of 27, as we hope that we shall be. It may possibly be 28. At the same time, we must guard against the creation of a two-speed Europe by allowing enhanced co-operation in whole new areas not covered by the treaties. That is the purpose of the general principles on enhanced co-operation which this amendment seeks to strike out of the treaty. I appreciate that the
noble Lord has moved the amendment in a probing sense, but it is necessary to explain to your Lordships what in fact the effect of the amendment would be.I am sure that the noble Lord does not really want enhanced co-operation with no safeguards for individual member states, and with no bar against operating in whole new areas, or with no entrenched right for all member states to be given the chance to participate. I am sure that that is not his position.
The provisions for enhanced co-operation already exist. They were introduced in the Amsterdam treaty, but they have not yet been used. What Nice does is to make them easier to use for those who want to, while strengthening the safeguards for those who do not. That is a sensible move to prepare for a successful enlarged Union. I stress to the noble Lord that in the view of the Government this is one of the building blocks which will be so important in that enlarged Union.
As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said in his speech in Warsaw last year:
- "Enhanced co-operation is an instrument to strengthen the Union from within, not an instrument of exclusion."
It was right to strengthen the safeguards. It was right too, as we did at Nice, to amend the procedures so that—provided the safeguards are respected—no one state can veto a proposal for enhanced co-operation. There are of course exceptions around CFSP.
A great deal has been made of this change. I hope that I am not misreading the noble Lord's moving of the amendment, but I thought that he spoke in a rather different way than in our previous discussions. I stress to the noble Lord that we are clear that it is not reasonable in an enlarged EU for one member state to hold up those wishing to proceed with enhanced co-operation, provided that those rigorous conditions, which I stressed to your Lordships a moment or two ago, have been met.
The noble Lord asked for examples. Were we leaving it all to the Quai d'Orsay or had we got some jolly good ideas coming out of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office? Perhaps I can take an example from each of the pillars where we might want to see enhanced co-operation being used to take matters forward where there was not entire unanimity.
In the Community pillar, for example, the UK might want to join an initiative on scientific research which some other member states do not. That is a very
important part of the Government's policy. My noble friend Lord Sainsbury, the Minister for Science, has been working a great deal on this matter through the DTI. There may be initiatives that we are able to co-operate in with other member states. We might want to participate in an initiative to improve transport links between the United Kingdom and neighbouring states. That may be something that could go forward on this kind of basis.I shall now turn to the second pillar. With regard to CFSP, the United Kingdom might want to join with other interested member states to implement a common EU policy in Africa, such as managing election monitors. That might be a kind of co-operation towards which we and others who have close links with Africa for various historical reasons might feel more impelled.
The third pillar is justice and home affairs. It is possible to imagine the United Kingdom perhaps joining with a group of member states to agree tough action on an issue that directly affected only a small group of us. An example might be drug trafficking across the North Sea, a matter in which we and some of our European neighbours would have some specific interest, while other colleagues elsewhere might not.
I hope that that will give the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, some examples and some reassurance that the Foreign Office thinks closely about such things. I am sure that the noble Lord needs no reassurance on that point; he knows that the officials in the Foreign Office are an enthusiastic lot, who will be thinking of ways in which the interests of this country can be furthered through such a mechanism.
All in all, the improved and enhanced co-operation arrangements are a valuable feature of the treaty. We strongly support them. I hope that I have not misread the way in which the noble Lord moved the amendment, and I hope that he will agree that we should not throw those arrangements out of the treaty. I hope that I have responded to the noble Lord's probing amendment in a way that is helpful to him.
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