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Lord Clement-Jones: We have had an interesting debate. The Minister put it very well when he said that he had no doubt. I share that lack of doubt. Even where there is a doubt, because of the public health interest we should legislate in these matters and not have a sunset clause. That is a fair statement, in the light of Amendments Nos. 89 and 90.
The noble Lord, Lord Peston, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Jay, have told us all about the problems of research that would fit the criteria set out in Amendment No. 89. That is fraught with difficulties relating to timing, changes in behaviour and the fact that there are other factors. Nobody has ever denied that other factors affect tobacco consumption, including price and peer group pressure.
The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, talked about seeking after truth. I am among that number. We want to see the evidence after a few years of the operation of the Bill in the proper way, but the evidence pro tem is pretty overwhelming. I do not accept the points made by those who cast doubt on the evidence. I shall not repeat what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, but many speakers at Second Reading went through the evidence exhaustively, particularly that from Scandinavia and New Zealand, but also that from many other areas. I hope that that tracking will take place.
Of course, the situation is complicated by the fact that there are other measures. This is only one part of a total package. As several noble Lords, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, pointed out, a range of other measures are being taken to reduce tobacco consumption. That complicates the matter.
I have great sympathy with the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson. I very much welcome what the Minister said on that subject. Of course we regret any loss of employment, but one must be realistic. If we are banning advertising and we intend to lower consumption of tobacco products, there will be an inevitable reduction in employment, unless there is a simultaneous and regrettable export surge. The proper way forward is to look for alternative forms of employment. The companies involved must take that on board.
I do not believe that a sunset clause is the proper way forward. I am the first to stand up on human rights matters, whether it is prevention of terrorism legislation or matters affecting individual liberty. Such measures should be extremely narrowly confined in their application and I favour including sunset clauses in such legislation if appropriate. However, as I said earlier, I do not believe that we are talking about matters of fundamental human rights and I do not believe that a sunset clause is appropriate. As the Minister said, sunset clauses are appropriate when the state takes exceptional powers that need restricting.
I am afraid that I am not sympathetic to Amendments Nos. 89 or 90. I am sympathetic in spirit with Amendment No. 93, but I am afraid that the Bill will have an inevitable impact on employment.
Baroness Noakes: We have had an interesting debate on the amendments. I thank my noble friend Lord Skelmersdale for his support on the sunset clause. The two of us are pretty lonely on the subject—so lonely that I might even think about taking up smoking again.
I am surprised at the opposition to a sunset clause. We are not seeking to oppose the Bill. A number of noble Lords have said that we have enough evidence to legislate. I am not opposing that plausible position. However, we do not know the effects of a tobacco ban on cigarette consumption, particularly among the young, in this country. The aim of the amendment was simply to find that out. It is modestly drafted, because it requires only that the Secretary of State should be satisfied that the Act has led to a reduction in tobacco consumption, in particular among the young. It does not seek to oppose the nature of the Bill but seeks after truth in this matter, after the event.
To back that up, I proposed that research be undertaken. A number of noble Lords have spoken of the difficulties of research. The noble Baroness, Lady Jay, talked about the way in which tobacco advertising fitted into a wider programme. I accept that. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, spoke about confounding variables—a new term which I shall use often. I understand what they say: that it is difficult to undertake this kind of research. But it is not impossible over the proposed timescale. I accept the point that timescales might be longer. However, it is possible to do the research. Why are we afraid to find out the position?
Lord Faulkner of Worcester: I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way. If she accepts the principle that the purpose underlying the legislation and so much else of our health education policy is to reduce the amount of tobacco consumption and if research were to prove that the Bill had not produced a big reduction in consumption, the logical conclusion would be to consider ways in which we can redouble our efforts and bring about a reduction by other means. It is surely not logical to throw away the one weapon which we already have in the armoury.
Baroness Noakes: The noble Lord misunderstands me. I have no problem about trying to reduce consumption. It is a wholly worthy aim. Many of the strands of policy to which the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, referred are important in achieving that aim. If a tobacco ban is seen by evidence to be ineffective that does not lead me to say logically that I want to throw it away. If a tobacco ban is not effective, since it restricts companies carrying out their lawful business in this country, I would want to remove it. But, equally, I would want to redouble, treble or quadruple efforts to reduce by other policies tobacco consumption. I focus on this single policy. If that policy is not effective, it should not be on the statute book.
Lord Peston: Is the noble Baroness not interested in logic? My noble friend Lady Jay made a decisive point. I put it as simply as I can. Why are we engaged in the health education business if at the same time the tobacco companies are spending millions more than we are spending and both are regarded as legitimate activities? If we are in the health education business—very strongly we are—logically, it is entirely reasonable that we should say, "We do not want another group of people out there busily promoting the exact thing that we in the health business are saying is a bad thing". Is not there a logical point here? It is quite separate from everything else we are talking about.
Baroness Noakes: With the greatest respect to the noble Lord, Lord Peston, I do not think that it follows logically that one would want to ban tobacco advertising at the same time as doing other things. It is not proven that a tobacco advertising ban will lead to a reduction in consumption. If we were clear about that, there would not be a problem. If a ban on tobacco advertising had no impact, we should be neutral and allow advertising to continue.
I put this to the noble Lord, Lord Peston. Advertising could be aimed at increasing consumption—that is the position of most of the people who support the Bill—and therefore should be banned. That is not the same as a tobacco ban leading to a reduction in consumption. But tobacco advertising could also be aimed—as the tobacco companies maintain—at increasing their market share within the market which exists. They are competing among each other for smokers who have already decided to smoke. They are not policies, in this day and
age, designed at increasing consumption but to increase market share. That is what research might wish to find out.
Baroness O'Cathain: I thank my noble friend for giving way. One cannot prove that tobacco advertising is solely to increase market share. Even if one could prove that, within that market share there would be new, young smokers because older smokers may be dead from emphysema and lung cancer, and goodness knows what else, or have given up. I know many older smokers who have given up smoking after 30 or 40 years. The reality is that one cannot say that because tobacco advertising is done in this way it increases only market share. That has been a spurious argument all along.
Baroness Noakes: I am grateful, I think, to my noble friend. I continue to have a naive belief that research in this area would enlighten us all as to what the effect of a ban on tobacco advertising in this country might be. Given the time, I shall not labour the point further but I shall not rule out returning to this matter at Report stage. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 91 and 92 not moved.]
Clause 21 [Commencement, short title and extent]:
House resumed: Bill reported with amendments.
- House adjourned at thirteen minutes before four o'clock.
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