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Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness again and I am obliged to her for giving way. Does what she has just said mean that the Government remain opposed to the charter being incorporated into any treaty? Will they maintain that opposition at the 2004 conference? Can we have an absolute assurance that, although they rarely do it, the Government will, on this occasion, use the veto?
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, it clearly means that that is our position in discussing the Nice treaty. The noble Lord now asks me to give an absolute undertaking for the year 2004. He is right. I shall not give such an undertaking for the straightforward reason which I hope I articulated earlier: I do not believe that at this stage it is sensible so to do. At this stage we have not finalised the agenda or heard all the arguments. I believe that it would be disingenuous to say that we agree to this being incorporated into the agenda but that we shall not even listen to what is said to us about it. Therefore, I am being absolutely straightforward with the noble Lord. He is probably not in the least bit disappointed with what I said. I assume that he is probably rather pleased that I have not been able to give him that assurance. However, I shall not do so because I do not believe that I am in a position to do so honestly.
I turn to the issue of treaty simplification. We agree with those who say that the treaties are almost impossible to read and that greater clarity is desirable. That is why we decided at Nice that the 2004 IGC should also consider how to simplify the treaties in order to make them understood. I believe that we are all aware that that will be a challenge. The treaties are complicated largely because they are agreed by unanimity, and each phrase or sentence usually represents some sort of compromise designed to safeguard the interests of one or other member state. In many cases, frankly, that has been the United Kingdom. But we are determined that we should make the effort.
We are also determined that we should not wait until 2004 to begin the process of clarifying what the treaties do and do not mean. The Government have started by making available in an easy-to-read form information on the Nice treaty in a booklet published shortly after Nice and on the rest of the EU treaties via the FCO website. We intend to build on that work.
I turn to the role of national parliaments. I believe that that is where many of your Lordships' concerns are focused. We have long believed that national parliaments should be more closely involved in monitoring and shaping EU decisions. That is why this Government introduced stronger scrutiny arrangements when we came to office in 1997. Of course, we ensured that all three pillars were brought under the scrutiny of the two committees: one in the other place; one in your Lordships' House. I believe that that has been a welcome change. That is why we
sought debate in this Parliament on matters of EU importance, as we did before and after the Nice treaty. That is why the Prime Minister has proposed, as one possible solution, a second Chamber of the European Parliament made up of representatives from national legislatures.But, of course, noble Lords opposite are right. There are several proposals on the table; for example, from France Prime Minister Jospin has proposed a congress of national parliaments, and today ideas have been put forward from Denmark on the issue of mandating. We must consider these issues on their merits. What matters to all of us is that national legislatures, with which most of our European citizens most readily identify, should continue to have an important role in EU matters as the EU enlarges its membership and develops its activities.
The noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton, helpfully pointed out that it is quite clear from the declaration that the words "inter alia" are used, so other issues may be added to the four that I articulated.
The noble Lord, Lord Howell, was exercised about the article in the Financial Times claiming the existence of an FCO plan for a kind of Security Council arrangement in the EU, with the UK, France and Germany as the prominent group. That is not true. It has not been proposed, and has not even been discussed within the Government. As for the other most interesting story about the £1 million to be paid for any chairman—mentioned, I believe, by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon—that sounds both silly and misguided to me, as was the article from the Financial Times. However, if I am wrong, I shall write to the noble Lord and place a copy of the letter in the Library of the House.
The Nice declaration does not limit what we can talk about at the IGC. Clearly, that would not be right. The world is moving very fast, and it is not possible to predict the EU's priorities in the year 2004. I am sure that the noble Lord would say, rightly, that we were being foolish were we to attempt to do so. We are looking at the proposed agenda items on that basis.
We look forward to this debate on the future of the European Union. Our aim is further to reform the Union so that we can continue to deliver what I believe most of the citizens of Britain and Europe want, and do so in ways that command their consent and support. On this side of the House we approach the debate with confidence. Since 1997, we have learnt that our approach, which is pro-Europe and pro-reform, is one that is working. The success of the Nice treaties confirm that, as does the agenda for 2004 agreed at Nice. The agenda is in the interests of Britain. We believe that it is also in the interests of Europe as a whole.
I hope that I have been able to answer the majority of the questions raised. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, made a very comprehensive address on the issues involved. I hope that the noble Lord will feel that I have answered the matters raised sufficiently so as to allow him to withdraw the amendment. If we did not
take this agenda forward and were to vote against it, I believe that that action would place us in real difficulty when discussing with our European colleagues those very items about which the noble Lord and so many of his colleagues have expressed concern. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, this afternoon's debate has been most interesting. We have addressed some quite fundamental issues to which we shall no doubt be turning our minds in different contexts in future weeks and months. The Minister answered many points most fully. She teased me about the apparent lack of troops behind me when I began my opening remarks. I confess that, for a moment, I felt a little like the Duke of Wellington at Waterloo waiting for the Prussian troops to arrive at the end of the day. If I spoke at length, it was because I wished to deal with a number of fundamental issues that had not been previously addressed, and may not have been properly considered in the other place. However, I also did so to give my "troops", who were otherwise engaged, time to arrive in the Chamber.
I shall deal briefly with some of the issues. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, who has great experience in these matters, spoke about dividing lines and the need to circumscribe and limit the powers of the European institutions and of the Commission. I used to be of that view when I believed that Europe was working in the old way. Indeed, I confess that I once wrote a book in which I said that that would be a good idea. However, like ships passing in the night, just as the noble Lord has come to that conclusion I have moved on from it. It seems to me that the new fabric of international relations, and the new network arrangements of the much more flexible kind that are emerging, make the idea of a written constitution, as proposed, completely out of date and inappropriate for the kind of Europe that we want to see.
However, I recognise that that thought belongs to tomorrow and that, for today, the cliche is, "Let's have a constitution". That seems to be the general idea. Clearly, it will be pushed at this convention. I envisage with some foreboding the attempt being made to write all this down. I believe that it will end in tears, but that is the wisdom of the moment and everyone thinks that it is okay. I understand the distaste of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, for the Folketing and seeing parliaments becoming involved in endless "negotiation" to control their Ministers, thus removing lovely quality time in which officials can get on with the wonders of negotiation. But that, again, is the pattern for tomorrow: there will be more demand than ever from parliaments and peoples who are more empowered and have greater access to more information to have a far bigger say in how these matters are decided. Negotiations will become more difficult, as will momentum, but, on the other side of the coin, there will be more democracy. It is slow; it is infuriating; it is maddening; and it does not always fit in with aims and vision. However, it is the way that the world ought to go, and I believe that it will go in that direction.
I have made it quite clear that I very much favour a stronger role for national parliaments. My reason for wanting to knock this piece out of the declaration is that we do not like the proposal that the role should be designed not by our own discussion and debate, and by our elected government, but by a superior convention that, somehow, sets out some new role for us. The question of how it is done is at issue. We do not find the tone of the suggestion in the declaration to be encouraging.
I turn to the applicant countries and the question of whether their invitation to be involved would be damaged by the amendment. I agree that it would. However, I cannot see the need for a declaration, let alone a treaty, merely to arrange that there should be an invitation for those applicant countries to be fully involved. I am totally in support of their full involvement. In fact, I believe that their involvement has not been sufficient thus far. That can be easily overcome. We do not need to make elaborate summit declarations to achieve that aim.
I turn to the two core matters under discussion. As for the convention details, the Minister very frankly and openly said that she could give no categoric assurance on how the representation will be organised. I assure the noble Baroness that we have been trying. Obviously, I cannot speak for members of other parties, but we have been trying to put forward the point of view that your Lordships' House should have a say in these matters. I believe that that was the pattern in a precious arrangement as regards the embryo of the European Charter of Fundamental Rights. We know that a Member of this House was able to speak for us; namely, the noble Lord, Lord Bowness. I had hoped that that would happen again on this much bigger issue. That is why we have been trying to push that point, and we shall continue to do so.
I am quite sure that the noble Baroness is doing her utmost, but the basic problem is this: is it really right that this great national Parliament, with all its history and authority in its two Houses, should be represented just by two people attending a convention in Brussels? I believe that the inventors of this convention idea have got it wrong. This is not the way in which the future of Europe can be democratically decided. It may go ahead; indeed, it probably will. But I do not believe that it will inspire vast confidence that the future of Europe is in democratic hands. Although our two members will be chosen and will no doubt do their best, they will have an enormous uphill problem to connect with the feelings of both the other place and of this House about how the future of Europe should be organised. I am left with the feeling that that is a very unhappy position, and one that I do not think we should necessarily accept.
As for the charter details, the Minister said, again, that she could give no undertaking about what will happen in 2004. She said that the Government have not agreed that the charter should be fully embedded in the treaties. However, in a preliminary ruling,
- "the Commission has agreed to apply the Charter of Fundamental Rights. Accordingly every proposal for legislation, and every regulation submitted for adoption by the Commission, will undergo prior review for compatibility with the Charter".
As we are nearing the end of the debate, I do not want to ask more questions, but a question that has not been answered and that hangs in the air is whether the Government have agreed that point. They may say that they have not agreed anything in relation to the charter, but something has happened and the Commission has taken on a role. I wonder whether the Government have objected to that. I do not know. Perhaps we shall learn about that at another time. Clearly we shall not learn about it from what we have heard this afternoon.
Although through the proposal to change this declaration we have raised many broad issues—these two particular issues merit very serious attention—I do not believe that they have received the full attention that they deserve nor have we received the full assurances that we seek. For that reason I wish to test the opinion of the House.
4.50 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 13) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 115; Not-Contents, 177.
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