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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Hollis of Heigham): Not at all.
Lord Addington: My Lords, it is also good to see the noble Baroness in her place on the Government Front Bench. In the past she has been on the other side of the Chamber when we have debated these matters. I remember her being on my side in certain Divisions during the passage of the original Bill. Unfortunately, when people move across to the other side of the
Chamber, one suddenly finds the brakes of government being applied. Perhaps this happens to all of us, and one day perhaps I shall find out. However, we have not moved as fast as we had hoped.The 1995 Act was never seen by most of those involved as an end to the argument; it was merely a starting point. It was not happy in its inception—it was effectively dragged from the then government as a result of pressure from both outside and inside Parliament. As a result, the Act has a series of glaring holes.
The exemption for small firms is one that I particularly remember. I have never felt that having one more employee provides the grounds for not discriminating, when one less means that discrimination is possible. That is simply not right. There is something basically flawed about it. The series of exemptions in the Act does not make sense.
The defence of reasonableness runs through the 1995 Act. It states that if a person cannot do the job, he or she does not have to be employed. That is how I have always interpreted it. Then surely that relates to the Armed Forces exemption, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen. Surely it is the case that if a disabled person cannot fulfil the basic criteria, the person should not be included. If, as a result of future technical developments, disabled servicemen and women can do their jobs satisfactorily, their entry to the services should be accepted.
Perhaps I may refer briefly to the disability that I know best. How many dyslexic infantrymen have there been in the Army? We do not know. There have always been such groups in the service. Let us not pretend that the barrier is rock-solid. That has never been the case. It is possible that the Army does not know the extent to which it has included disabled servicemen under the definitions in current legislation. I merely put that as a point of argument to the noble Lord and others who have spoken.
I have been on a steep learning curve in one area of disability. The noble Lord, Lord Bragg, and the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, spoke at considerable length about mental illness, as did my noble friend. When I first heard the suggestion that the Disability Discrimination Act should be extended to cover mental illness, I asked myself whether such a provision belonged in the Act. The Bill extends the Act to cover two new groups. Should we add a third; or should we opt for an amendment to bring all these areas together? We are all familiar with the "list" argument. Should we have a huge list including every possibility, or should we opt for a general definition at the beginning, so as not to miss anyone out?
I have concluded that a definition at the beginning might be a better way forward; and that a better approach would be to include in disability discrimination legislation the history of illness and its effects. Let us not kid ourselves. There will be other groups who are affected. We must bear that in mind. Having heard many of the arguments, I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Bragg, and the noble Baroness,
Lady Wilkins, have put their finger on a major flaw in our anti-discrimination legislation, even if there is a semantic argument as to whether mental illness is a disability. The history of illness means that people can be discriminated against. We could go on arguing the point. However, we are now down to tactics as opposed to principles. Our approach should be: how can we achieve the best objectives?I cannot say much more about the rest of the Bill because I shall simply end up agreeing with virtually everybody who has spoken. The muddle of transport at the moment is ridiculous. The possibilities and permutations of a journey on public transport are farcical. It is very black humour, but there you are. The idea that somebody should be refused entry to public transport because they are taking slightly longer to pay a fare is also ridiculous. It is beyond words.
We have to take a stab at a broader brush approach. The Bill contains sensible proposals on housing. The principle is unarguable.
I shall try not to repeat everything that has been said. The Bill is another brave attempt at more comprehensive anti-discrimination legislation. I strongly suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Ashley, does not regard it as the final word because the foundations are not what we would have chosen. If the Government do not see sense and accept the Bill, we may have a look at expanding the foundations. As has already been said, this issue is not going to go away. I look forward to the Minister's response.
8.31 p.m.
Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ashley, for introducing his Private Member's Bill and explaining its objectives so clearly. Disability and disability discrimination are matters that demand and deserve our attention. I welcome this opportunity to consider these important issues.
The Disability Discrimination Act 1995, which was introduced in the other place by William Hague, who was then the Minister for Social Security and Disabled People, represented the first attempt by a British Government to legislate on the concept of disability discrimination. It was a wide-reaching piece of legislation, which sought to enable all disabled people to engage fully and profitably in society. Despite what the noble Lord, Lord Addington, said, it has been described by the Equal Opportunities Review as,
- "the most important discrimination legislation in a generation"
- "in some respects, the most radical of our discrimination laws".
However, on these Benches we accept that the time has come for a more proactive approach to equality for disabled people to make it easier for them to access and enforce their rights. It is becoming apparent that the legislation in its current form has a number of gaps that we must seek to close. For example, the extent to which electoral services, the built environment or highways are covered by the DDA is at present unclear. I note that Clause 8 would ensure that all such service functions were covered, thus sweeping away some of the uncertainty about what is and is not
subject to the Act. Inequalities remain real and persistent for disabled people and the law sanctions discrimination in too many areas.On these Benches we were pleased to support government legislation establishing the Disability Rights Commission. We believe that the commission has started well by emphasising the importance of example and conciliation as a first resort, but with underpinning legal sanctions for wilful and unacceptable behaviour. However, the Government have been slow to act further on the provision of greater protection for disabled people. The 1997 Labour manifesto contained a commitment to,
- "comprehensive, enforceable civil rights for disabled people".
With the Government apparently giving no indication of when and how they plan to implement the remaining Disability Rights Task Force recommendations, I turn to the Bill. Like the noble Baronesses, Lady Darcy de Knayth and Lady Masham, and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I welcome the extension of DDA protection in Clause 1 to those with cancer and HIV. The complexity of the current definition encourages defendants to make spurious challenges to the claimant's status as a disabled person, adding to the length and cost of litigation and deterring disabled people from bringing or continuing cases.
I am particularly aware of the continuing unhappiness of organisations such as the RNIB, which has found that visually impaired people often have problems establishing that they are covered by the Act, sometimes because they have developed coping mechanisms and sometimes because tribunals have failed to apply guidance correctly.
Equally, I have received representations from MIND, which is unable to support the Bill fully, as the definition of disability does not include people with mental health problems. The noble Lord, Lord Bragg, spoke eloquently about mental health problems. I look forward to helping to improve the Bill on that important issue in Committee.
The Bill addresses the immensely important issue of disability and the workplace. Disabled people make up a large and growing proportion of the working age population. Properly implemented internal grievance procedures can help employers to resolve complaints in the workplace, meaning that fewer cases are taken to tribunal, which can be a lengthy and difficult process for everyone concerned. Employers must create work cultures in which discrimination cannot
exist. Businesses react better to new legal frameworks when they can appreciate the strong business case for disability-friendly policies.However, a recently published survey showed that employers are failing to introduce innovative, multi-disciplinary approaches to managing disability at work. That suggests that disability policies have become static, with few going beyond the basic administrative requirement. Moreover, the poll showed that only 45 per cent of respondents had made use of government funding in that area. Wider awareness of such schemes would mark a big step forward for disabled people—those already in the workplace and those looking to join.
None the less, like my noble friend Lord Swinfen, I must profess some concern at the provisions laid out in Clauses 4 and 5, in particular the proposal to end the current employment exemptions to bring the Armed Forces within the DDA. I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Ashley, the noble Baronesses, Lady Wilkins and Lady Darcy de Knayth, and the noble Lord, Lord Addington, but on this point I find myself in agreement with the Government. It would not be appropriate at this time to bring the Armed Forces under the remit of the Act. We have arguably the best Armed Forces in the world, and they must have full fighting capability.
With reference to Clause 7, I find myself turning again to the failure of the present Government. The travel choices for all disabled people should be increased, and easier access to public transport should be made a priority. However, here I sense that the Government have failed to build on the earlier model set down by the DDA. In their 1998 transport White Paper, the Government agreed that,
- "public transport must meet the needs of all".
However, save for introducing new accessibility regulations for public transport, the Government have been slow to improve transport choices for the disabled. We have been expecting the Government to publish a consultation document on transport for the disabled, but little has been forthcoming. Perhaps the Minister can advise the House when that document might be launched. I quite appreciate that I have not given her notice of the point, but perhaps she can write to me and put a copy of her letter in the Library.
I move on to the issues highlighted by Clauses 10 to 12. The Bill would apply to duties to make "reasonable adjustments" for the sale and rent of premises. That would be welcome. Basic forms of discrimination, such as guide-dog bans and refusing to communicate simple information, could be challenged more effectively. However, I must express some concern at the extent to which these "reasonable adjustments" could be taken. Under the Bill, a disabled person could request permission to make a physical alteration to the premises and the landlord would not be able to withhold consent unreasonably. My concern is that such provisions could overburden a landlord and the sense of "reasonable" could be applied too subjectively. A scenario could arise in which different pieces of legislation were applying different pressures
to a landlord. It might, for example, be ruled illegal for a landlord to refuse to convert a property for a disabled occupant, while it might simultaneously be ruled illegal for him to perform that work under the planning regulations.I conclude by saying, as did the noble Lord, Lord Bragg, how much I admire the work of the noble Lord, Lord Ashley, on disability issues. The thrust of his work is both valuable and admirable and he provides an example for us all to follow. It is clear that we still have barriers to overcome in ensuring that all disabled people are able to live in dignity and independence and play their full part in society. I hope that today's debate has gone some way to ensuring that that happens.
8.43 p.m.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Ashley has introduced a Bill that clearly has wide support in the House. Extending and enhancing disabled people's rights is a topic that we debate regularly, and I think that we do it—as many of your Lordships have said—with considerable expertise. As other noble Lords have said, the issue is not one that will go away. I also do not think that, reading today's Hansard, one would be able to tell the party allegiance of any of the speakers in the debate. I think that that shows the bond we have between us.
For once, as this is a Private Member's Bill, I do not have the customary responsibility of replying to the debate and answering points. However, as even newly ingrained habits die hard, I am happy to have a go at answering just a couple of the wider, more salient points that have been made.
The noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, asked when additional costs can be passed on to customers and gave hairdressers as an example. The costs can be passed on when the differences in treatment can be justified as a specialist bespoke service to an individual disabled person which costs more than the standard service. That is the basic position.
The noble Baroness also asked about what is meant by "facilities" in Part III, and whether they include footpaths, towpaths and bridges. The term facility is very wide ranging and is generally interpreted generously by the courts. I should expect footpaths, towpaths and bridges to be covered by the Act when they are part of public footpaths.
The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, asked about local authorities' responsibilities in disseminating information. When information is a service, it will have to be provided in an accessible manner, such as in mail-packs, by local authorities. She also asked about small firms. Small employers will obviously not have to do anything unreasonable, as other noble Lords have commented. However, I am sure that she will be happy to know that, with the DRC, the Government will be helping to provide effective advice and information so that small employers understand the
Act and are not burdened by it. We shall use the time before the changes are due to meet just those needs and seek to allay just those worries.
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