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Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, for allowing me to intervene. Is it the policy of the Conservative Party to prohibit people from marrying when they
have been in a relationship for less than six months? There is no such inhibition on marriage, so far as I am aware.
Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, I entirely accept that and no, it is not. However, we are talking about a new form of legislation here and that is why I am asking the questions. If the noble Lord will allow me to continue I believe that he will see that I might view that as a cynical approach, but that others may not. That is one of the many questions that we feel deserves more discussion, particularly as many commentators are saying that that is one of the problems with the Bill.
Could the civil registration partnership be viewed as a neat way of avoiding tax and enjoying benefits without sincere commitment?
In contrast, it is very rare to find a couple, where either party is prepared to enter a marriage, without a genuine hope that the marriage will last until they are parted by death. Would it not be sensible to respond to that arguably cynical view of civil partnerships by proposing a timeframe that would, in a practical sense, police the sincerity of the commitment to the partnership?
For example, two years ago I wrote a policy paper on the family which was debated across the United Kingdom by the voluntary side of the Conservative Party and which included the possibility of registering civil partnerships, including same-sex partners. Indeed, some commentators may be surprised to learn that it is not new ground for the Conservative Party and, indeed, the feedback from my paper confirmed a genuine and widespread will to consider those matters further.
In that paper I used the example of the then new French institution known as "Pacs", which stands for Pacte Civil de Solidarite. Pacs allows two people to register their union and then, three years later, to enjoy the statutory rights afforded by that registration.
Did the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, consider this (and perhaps he did) as well as other examples where a form of civil partnership has already been introduced? For example, those registers introduced in Spain, Norway, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Iceland and/or Germany, will have been, to some extent, tried and tested.
Given that it is such a sensitive area that touches on a very broad range of issues, it must surely make sense to review, in some detail, the workings of civil partnerships by our European partners before we legislate here; after all, it does, albeit occasionally, pay to learn from experience.
In conclusion, our policies and our laws should reflect the world as it is and the questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, in this Bill are timely and deserve a serious and considered response. However, we believe that there is more work to be done and we would very much welcome further in-depth discussion of all the issues.
2.19 p.m.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, ours is capable of being a great-hearted society and I derive that proposition from two sources. The first was the article by the noble Lord, Lord Rees-Mogg, in The Times, which was plainly deeply considered and carefully argued. The second, if I may say so without presumption, was the speech of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford, who could not have been more positive in his approach.
The right reverend Prelate said that we live in a diverse and changing society. He is right. His illustration, with perfect timing, that two gay men needed help from the vicar—at which I could see metaphorical nods, until he teased the House by pointing out that the vicar was female—was a perfect illustration, perfectly made, of the fact that we are living in changing times. Indeed, we could not have held this debate five years ago because we have not heard the rampant voice of obscurantism from any speaker. Of course, many approach this matter from a different basis.
Your Lordships are entitled to know the Government's position and I state it plainly. I can confirm that the Government will look very carefully at the implications of setting up such a scheme of civil partnership registration, rights and responsibilities. The noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, is right. Questions need to be answered. She is right in saying that we ought to see and benefit from the experience of our European partners—another first for the Conservative Party; question that is, not statement! Of course, the French being much more intellectual than we, call them "civil solidarity pacts", which is marvellously Gallic.
The noble Baroness is right on one aspect; it is a three-year term. However, it applies to heterosexual couples as well. I am sure that if the benefit of the experience of the French points in that direction, then the conversion of the Conservatives will continue—perhaps.
The work here is at a very early stage. It was rightly pointed out that my colleague in the Commons, Jane Griffiths, introduced her Bill in October last year. Of course, work is at an early stage, but we are getting on. The first meeting was held on 9th January this year, so there has not been real delay. Sixty officials attended from across the different Whitehall departments. That will be essential. All noble Lords who have dealt with these intricacies know that, whatever the principled approach may be, the working out in practice of a large number of questions, many of which have not been exhaustively explored, will take a lot of working through.
The Cabinet Office is now following up issues. I was grateful to have the meeting with my colleague, Barbara Roche, the lead Minister, with the noble Lord, Lord Lester—to whom I pay full tribute, as he knows—and with Angela Mason of Stonewall. We had a productive discussion. On the question of a committee, the noble Lord, Lord Lester, promised to
write to me next week setting out his views and I promised to give an early response, whatever that may turn out to be.I stress that the Government have a genuinely open mind. I cannot give any commitments at this stage, nor would your Lordships sensibly expect them, except that we shall approach this matter properly, seriously and thoroughly. The Bill has potential cost implications—the right reverend Prelate is right. There are complex inter-relating issues, not simply with regard to property, but also children and general social consequences. So we need to know in considerable detail what we are engaged on.
It may be that the noble Lord, Lord Lester, with his usual generosity, seized the appropriate moment to bring this debate to public attention, as he has undoubtedly succeeded in doing, but recognises that there are important consequential implications which we shall need to address. For instance, the example I paraphrase—I hope fairly—given by the noble Lord, Lord Rees-Mogg, was of two elderly retired sisters. The husband was a retired vicar. The three wanted to live together and make civil arrangements. That is a perfectly reasonable example to raise. Perhaps I may offer one or two others.
The noble Lord excludes anyone in a married relationship. But many people, though they do not live with their spouses, have a conscientious—it may be religious—objection to divorce. They may want to live in a completely companionable relationship—not a sexual relationship—with someone with whom they are comfortable, yet want to make arrangements of the kind the civil partnership offers. That is forbidden by the Bill.
Perhaps I may take another example, contrary to what the noble Baroness said, which came from the brutalist school; namely, if you are heterosexual and want the benefits, you can get married. Two schoolteachers, who have both been married but whose respective spouses are dead, want to live companionably in their old age. They want to share the expenses, the concerns, the worries and the comfort. They may both have a feeling that it would be disloyal to their former spouses to remarry. That is a perfectly legitimate view. It may not be shared by all of us but is capable of being honourably held by decent people. If that is so, should they—under the new brutalism—be excluded from benefits?
I stress that I ask these questions because I listened carefully to the debate. The more one looks at such questions, the more one realises that we must find answers. But I am not sure that the "one size fits all" is the way forward.
A good deal has been done but before I detail it, I must stress that I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lester. This Bill is not about marriage. It is about a different relationship, not unknown in the rest of Europe, which by and large seems to have worked satisfactorily. We are talking about civil partnership registration. That is a contractual obligation which encapsulates rights and responsibilities and which, for
many of our fellow citizens, is desired as a public recognition of what is essentially a personal and private commitment. That is what we are talking about. This has nothing to do with an attack on the institution of marriage.My response to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brightman, who always intervenes with effect and brevity, is to confirm that the Government recognise that marital partnerships remain the choice of many people who want to build stable relationships because they want to raise children and that that stability and that type of commitment are of critical importance to children, to families and to wider society. However, the two are not exclusive and in a diverse society, there is no reason why we should be stereotypical on every occasion.
We have made significant advances in dealing with same-sex and heterosexual partnerships. The noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, was correct in her illustration about the bomb attack. Since then, as your Lordships know, in April 2001, the criminal injuries compensation scheme was extended to cover both same-sex and heterosexual partners.
On immigration, unmarried heterosexual and same-sex couples may be eligible for leave to remain in the United Kingdom, if they have lived together for two years or more.
The point was raised that private business does better than public service. That is incorrect. These things are changing very quickly. The new Civil Service pensions scheme will offer survivor benefits to unmarried partners, whether same-sex or heterosexual. That is a very important step forward.
Your Lordships will contradict me if necessary, but I do not think that civilisation as we knew it has crumbled. That will come when the Government reform your Lordships' House—that was a parenthesis which no-one heard.
The question of succession arises. The Law Reform (Succession) Act 1995 states that a heterosexual unmarried partner can apply for succession rights; a same-sex partner cannot. Significant questions are raised about whether or not we deal with our fellow citizens fairly and justly. If there is significant injustice, it does not just tell itself on those who are the objects of injustice, but is an attack on the quality of our society and its stability and continuance.
The Law Commission is working on tenancy succession for same-sex partners. We expect the consultation document to be published early this year and it is hoped by the commission that there will be a final report and draft Bill by 2003. The Law Commission is also working on the property rights of home-sharers. Again, that work is continuing.
There is work being done. There is a degree of recognition. I take the theme and purpose of the noble Lord's Bill to be that these are piecemeal changes, not necessarily coherent, though just and necessary for the moment.
What the noble Lord wishes, I believe, is to remodel the availability of a wider spectrum of recognised relationships which may be available to those of our fellow citizens who feel disadvantaged, excluded and unjustly treated.
I hope that I have given as full a response as the House feels is reasonable and that I have given as positive a response as I am able to do at this time.
2.30 p.m.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, this has been an excellent debate. Movers of Bills always say that but on this occasion it happens to be really true. It has been a wise and compassionate debate and one full of common sense and good humour without the rampant obscurantism that the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House referred to a few moments ago.
I am extremely grateful to everyone who has not only spoken in the debate in their various ways but has also stayed and listened to it even when they have not spoken at a time long past most people's lunch hour. Their stamina indicates that you do not have to be under the age of 30 to be able to live and work in the way that we do, and on a Friday too. I am extraordinarily grateful to everyone. I am also grateful—I wish that my mother were here—for some of the flattering, personal remarks that were made about me. The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, described me as clever and patient. Patient I am not and I wish I did not have to try to be. I would rather be wise than clever. I like to think that the Bill is wiser than it is clever. However, I am grateful for the noble Baroness's comments.
Even though social attitude surveys show that on these issues the most obscurantist, conservative or restrictive section of the population comprises those over the age of 65, we have not, it seems to me, shown in this debate on any side of the House that we are incapacitated by our age from understanding the realities of modern life and the need for the law if not to keep pace with the realities of modern life—that may be too much to expect—at least to catch up without there being too much shortfall.
I shall be brief for obvious reasons. I wish to deal with some of the few questions that have been raised in the debate and first comment generally that few practical questions have been raised suggesting that a framework of this kind is impractical and would not tackle the anomalies and injustices that we referred to at the beginning of the debate. Those who have expressed reservations or objections to the Bill have done so either on moral grounds derived from their faith and their beliefs or have raised some fairly narrow but important questions. I see that some noble Lords have a briefing from the Christian Institute which I received only this morning which contains what I would describe as rampant obscurantism in part. I am surprised that it has the currency that it does. For example, I believe that it compares my Bill with bolshevism, Soviet communism and jacobinism, or perhaps pre-jacobinism from the age of the French
Revolution. I wish that the organisers had sent the briefing to me as well as to others. They have explained that they did not do so—
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