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Lord Roper: My Lords, from these Benches I welcome the rather unusual, perhaps unprecedented, opportunity for discussion of a Motion of this kind. The noble Lords proposed in the Motion are, I believe, both well qualified for this function. As has been said, the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, not only has experience as a Foreign Office Minister but also as a Member of the European Parliament and as a very active Member of the European Union Committee in this House. Although my noble friend Lord Maclennan of Rogart is a relatively new Member of your Lordships' House, he has been very actively involved in European matters in another place for well over 30 years. He, too, will represent us well.
I do not go quite as far as the noble Lord, Lord Cope, but I, too, regret the relatively limited time available for consideration of and consultation on the proposal and the choice of names, either between this House and another place or within this House. I also understand the concern that the noble Lord referred to about the position of the Cross-Benchers.
A Motion of this kind, whereby the House is asked its opinion in determining such a matter, is rather unusual. However, I notice that the Motion is not a decision by your Lordships' House but merely an expression of,
- "the opinion of this House".
The allocation of full members and alternates between this House and another place is less than satisfactory. On this occasion all of the former were given to another place and all of the latter were given to us. That is rather unsatisfactory, in view of the comparative advantage that your Lordships' House has in the consideration of European matters. In particular, the European Union Committee, which is chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon, has done much work on this and comparable issues.
It is by no means clear whether the full members will be able to attend regularly. I read in the Financial Times this morning that the convention will meet 11 days a month for at least a year. As has been said, that will be a heavy burden. It will meet considerably more often than did the body in which the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, took part, which considered the charter of human rights.
Will the Minister explain whether the alternates will be observers when the full members are present? The Laeken declaration in English states:
- "The members of the Convention may only be replaced by alternate members if they are not present".
I have two further questions for the Minister. Will those members from this House and another place who are being nominated have support in terms of research facilities for what will be a fairly onerous responsibility? The Minister referred to the reporting arrangements. Clearly, there are two different sets of reporting arrangements. There are arrangements so far as Mr Peter Hain, the Government's representative, is concerned. I hope that it will be possible for him to report to this House—to the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon—and to another place. It will also be important for the two Houses of Parliament to consider how parliamentary representatives from another place and from this House can report to the two Houses. They will probably do so by making use of the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Brabazon.
Despite those reservations and the fact that the way in which the conclusions were reached was not totally satisfactory, we on these Benches hope that the two Peers who have been nominated will make a useful contribution to a matter that we believe is of great importance.
Lord Craig of Radley: My Lords, I am most grateful, as I am sure are all noble Lords on these Benches, for the remarks of the Opposition and Liberal Democrat Chief Whips on Cross-Benchers and their expertise. Some unattributable intelligence and a little spadework on my part last Wednesday evening
revealed that one or two of the alternates might be drawn from your Lordships' House. I registered a possible Cross Bench interest with the usual channels, only to be informed on Thursday morning that there was now very little time: a Motion—the one that is before your Lordships' House—was to be tabled within a matter of minutes, and anyway the Foreign Secretary had agreed that the alternates would be from this House only that morning; that is, on Thursday.I think that I may assert without fear of contradiction that on these Benches there are some very informed and knowledgeable Members of the House on affairs European. However, in the short time available I was not able to contact any of a number of them.
I was, however, a little taken aback and surprised to be told, when I was hoping to seek an extension of time, that the issue was all highly political. I felt bound to point out that the Cross-Benchers were all parliamentarians, and therefore politicians, albeit not from a party stable. The convention will be a major contributor to developments in Europe. Its membership deserves measured consideration.
I hope that the message will be received that, with more than 20 per cent of Members of your Lordships' House now on these Benches and an increasing number of them being regular contributors to the work of the House, the opportunity to draw on the individual and collective expertise that resides on them will be viewed from the right end of the telescope, and that time will be allowed to make contact with those who often have other than their parliamentary duties to attend to.
Those on these Benches should not be sidelined. I do not wish by these remarks in any way to question the calibre or quality of the two noble Lords whose names appear on the Motion.
Lord Elton: My Lords, when the Minister replies, I hope that she will elaborate a little on the process by which the Motion was arrived at. As I understand it, the invitation was issued not to the Government but to Parliament but that the reply has been sent not by Parliament but by the Government—dictated to this House, it would seem, by circumstances.
We do not, of course, wish to delay the process. I accept the ability of those who have been appointed in the second row, as it were, of the affairs in Europe, on our behalf. However, it is important to recognise the distinction between government and Parliament. Parliament is here in the end to oversee and control government. The power of government should not be so extended that it pre-empts the decisions of Parliament. On a matter such as this, which is not a party political issue, the decision in the House of Commons may be predictable but the Government cannot normally count on the decision of this House, which contains that body of talented Cross-Benchers
and others. I hope that the Minister will show that in some ways this is not a usurpation by the Government of their function as part of Parliament.
Lord Bowness: My Lords, as the representative from this House to the convention that drew up the draft charter of human rights, I shall take a moment of noble Lords' time.
As that representative, I understand that there was a desire in your Lordships' House for a much more open process. Some noble Lords were extremely surprised when they found out that I had been appointed. I also understand that it is inevitable that the usual channels will be involved. They have a part to play in ensuring that there is a political balance, in terms of parliamentary representatives, between only four people.
However, we should not delude ourselves this afternoon into believing that the current process is in some way transparent. It may be rather more open than that involving my nomination by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, on the nomination of the usual channels. We do not know anything—or at least I do not; others may tell me that I am wrong—about how the other place came to take both full places.
As has already been said, it is somewhat extraordinary that this House should be overlooked, in view of the remarkable reputation that it has for the oversight of European Union matters and the serious manner in which its reports are received. It is also extraordinary, as my noble friend Lord Elton said, in view of the fact that these places were for the United Kingdom Parliament, not merely for the other place. I do not know—I have not read about this—whether any representations were made by Her Majesty's Opposition in the other place to ensure that this House was represented. If no representations were made, I am sure that other noble Lords will understand that I would consider that to be somewhat unfortunate. Had the previous pattern been followed, the other full member would have been drawn from these Benches. Certainly, while there has apparently been a much publicised election, I know of no consultation with regard to who should be nominated or who, indeed, should take that place.
The noble Baroness, Lady Symons, said that I had referred to the considerable burden of the previous convention. It was a burden which I was very happy to undertake. It was an administrative burden, and I believe that that is a serious point which needs to be addressed. The process was very open. Many hundreds of documents were posted on the convention website, including the working documents. On many occasions the documents arrived late—only a short time before the meeting took place. Those who, like Members of your Lordships' House, largely look after such matters themselves, know that that involves searching for the website, running through documents and printing them off on, if any of your Lordships are like me, a rather slow printer at home. The whole process produces a great pile of paper. It is that administration which is burdensome.
I, together with a colleague from the other place, was fortunate to serve with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, before his elevation to Attorney-General. Although he was the Prime Minister's representative and a government representative, he and his civil servants were, as one would expect, extremely good to the parliamentary representatives. They supplied information and, if documents arrived late, ensured that we were advised.
However, he was, as will be the Government's representative at this convention, the Government's and not the parliamentary representative. I believe it is important that whoever is responsible in this House makes arrangements for those documents to be supplied to this House on a regular basis and in good time so that Members in this House who are interested in following the proceedings of the convention will be able to do so. That person also needs to provide an adequate service for the two noble Lords who are nominated as alternates if, indeed, they are called upon to serve.
Like other noble Lords, in making these comments I do not wish in any way to be seen or thought of as criticising the appointment of the noble Lords, Lord Maclennan and Lord Tomlinson. As others have said, they will bring great expertise and experience to the convention. If the convention is to be a success, it must not be too tightly governed by political parties. The previous convention, of which I had the privilege to be a member, had, to some extent among the parliamentary members, some freedom and was able to achieve results by consensus. If that process is too strictly controlled in this convention, I suspect that it will not work. We all want the convention to be a success. Certainly it requires among its members people who will bring a constructive and positive approach to the workings and future of the European Union.
3.30 p.m.
Lord Monson: My Lords, I do not dissent for one moment from the noble Baroness's description of the excellent qualities possessed by the two noble Lords nominated by the Government. However, does she agree that at least 40 per cent of your Lordships oppose further European integration? Indeed, many of us believe that it has gone too far already. Conversely, no more than 60 per cent at the outside favour further European integration. That 60 per cent maximum will effectively have two representatives from this House, whereas the 40 per cent of sceptics will have none whatever. Is that fair and is it right?
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