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Baroness Anelay of St Johns: As has been headlined by my noble friend Lady Miller, I shall speak to my Amendment No. 2 which has been grouped with her Amendment No. 1. It is a somewhat unusual procedure, but it is unusual legislation. In another place, the matter of controls over cultural objects received scant regard, but we hope to redress that deficit in this House. The Bill is unusual also in that wide controls over the export of cultural objects would come within the Bill's remit. It feels as though culture is being piggybacked in a rather uncomfortable way on a Bill that, so far as the outside world is concerned, is mostly about military exports of a very serious nature.

As my noble friend said, last year, the Government conducted consultation when they issued their White Paper. However, although the Government sent the White Paper to an extensive list of cultural organisations, there was a lack of understanding among those organisations about the fact that their part in export controls was within the Bill's remit.

The purpose of Amendment No. 2 is to require the Government to consult the relevant cultural organisations before they impose export controls by means of an order. One would expect that export

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controls would usually be exercised in pursuance of the purposes of paragraphs 1, 2 or 8 of the schedule as currently drafted. Although I appreciate that amendments tabled this week by the Minister would substantially rewrite the schedule, at the moment, I have to deal with the schedule as currently drafted.

My noble friend Lady Miller raised an important issue in moving her amendment: there should be consultation with the relevant organisations before an order is laid before the House. It is important that there should be such a requirement in the Bill.

Clause 1 does of course cover far more than control of the export of military goods; it provides powers for the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport to control the export of cultural objects. Those objects could be anything from paintings to sculptures to textiles or perhaps historic weaponry. I say perhaps because, like my noble friend, I appreciate that this enabling Bill leaves so much to the imagination.

On 18th October 2001, the Minister's honourable friend in another place, Mr Griffiths, said:

"Our commitment is to have full public consultation on draft secondary legislation, which will provide everyone with an interest the opportunity to consider and comment on new controls introduced under the Bill".—[Official Report, Commons Standing Committee B, 18/10/01; col. 139.]

If that is a government commitment, why not include it in the Bill? Moreover, referring to Mr Griffiths's words, what are the "new controls" that will affect the cultural export market? I found the Minister's use of the word "new" worrying in this particular context.

The language in the Explanatory Notes also rang some alarm bells. Paragraph 9 states that the DTI will use the powers of the Bill,

"to consolidate existing secondary legislation"—

that is fine—but paragraph 10 states,

"the DCMS will establish controls",

as if that is something new. I understand from the DCMS—I thank the members of the Bill team to whom I have spoken who have always assisted me as far as they can and with courtesy—that the intention is to embody in the Bill those controls which are currently the status quo. The problem is that it is difficult for the interested observer to know what the status quo is. Therefore, Amendment No. 2 and other amendments that I have tabled seek to give the Government an opportunity to explain how the export control system works now with regard to the export of objects of cultural interest and how it will work in the future.

Last March the then Minister responsible for the arts, Mr Howarth, made the point that Britain has the second largest art market in the world, valued at around £4.5 billion in 1999, of which the antiquities market alone generated £15 million. Can the Minister give us more up-to-date figures? If not, does he agree in any event that our art market is vibrant, makes a significant contribution to the UK economy and,

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therefore, should be consulted before orders are laid which could, if we are not careful, impose damaging controls on its legitimate operation?

Lord Razzall: I make a straightforward point. It is not for me to determine whether or not the Government wish to extend the consultation on the secondary legislation. However, if they are minded to do so, it is important to recognise that it is not just relevant industrial organisations which are interested in the Bill. The attendance in the Chamber today and the contents of all our mailbags indicate considerable interest among all kinds of people, ranging from the Archbishop of Canterbury through to the relevant NGOs, let alone the other 63 bishops, in both the primary legislation and any secondary legislation that flows from it. Therefore, if the Government are minded to accept the noble Baroness's amendment, I trust that the consultation will not be limited to relevant industrial organisations. I do not wish to be contentious vis-à-vis the other opposition party in this Chamber but I believe that all its amendments tend to consider matters primarily from the point of view of the armaments industry without recognising necessarily that other interests are concerned about the Bill and are represented in the Chamber.

Lord Judd: Before the Minister replies I pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Razzall. At the beginning of our proceedings I should make very plain that I am closely involved in the work of Saferworld as honorary senior fellow. I was involved with that body professionally until recently. That should be known to the Committee because obviously that work considerably informs the contributions which I hope to make to the discussion.

Following what the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, said, I do not follow the logic of the amendment. It seems to me that if there is to be consultation it should be recognised not just that there are many NGOs in this country and other bodies, Churches and so on, which may have a view, but also that there are organisations and NGOs with considerable knowledge of the situation in the country concerned whose insight and in-depth knowledge may be indispensable at that juncture. The effect of these amendments is exclusive rather than inclusive and that is unfortunate.

However, I also accept from what the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, said that if one were really to open up the discussion to everyone who could conceivably have an interest, it might be a difficult situation for the Government to handle. I imagine that that may well be the thrust of their case.

4.45 p.m.

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: I support my noble friend Lady Anelay on Amendment No. 2. I declare an immediate unremunerated interest as the president of the British Antique Dealers' Association and also the British Art Market Federation. It is in that context that I want to say a few words. The British Art Market Federation is composed of about 15 different

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individual parts of the art market which were brought together at the invitation of the previous government in 1996 so that the art market could speak with a single voice. The art market has been under threat. My noble friend mentioned the size of that market. I refer to measures emanating from the European Union in Brussels and the co-operation and quality of consultation that have existed between the art market and the Government during the past five years since the federation was created. The good intentions of the Government impressed the trade and influenced its efforts to fight on the Government's behalf. Therefore, I strongly reinforce what has been said. I hope that that spirit can be maintained as regards the measures proposed in the Bill.

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I support Amendment No. 2. I believe that there is a black hole in the schedule to the Bill. Where one is dealing with control orders in respect of arms there is a long table to guide the Minister in bringing forward an order under one of the first three clauses of the Bill. However, as regards objects of cultural interest, there is absolutely no guidance at all. I endorse the remarks of the proposer of the amendment. It seems entirely reasonable that an important part of our economy should have some clear purpose in the real meaning of that word incorporated onto the face of the Bill.

Lord Sainsbury of Turville: I wish to speak to Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 together. I say right at the start that the export of cultural objects is a matter of great importance to us. If it does not, in the course of the debate, receive as much attention as the export of military equipment, that is not because we do not think that it is important but simply because it does not produce quite so much interest and excitement when considering the Bill. I am happy to say right at the beginning that we think that a vibrant market in such items is extremely important. That does not appear in great detail in the schedule because there is not a great area of debate—clearly, there can be some debate—as regards what comprises a cultural object, whereas, as the Committee knows, there is considerable debate as regards what objects comprise military equipment.

As regards the two amendments—

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way. The issue is not the definition of a cultural object so much as the purpose for which a prohibition can be imposed under the Bill.

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