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Lord Sainsbury of Turville: This has been an area of some confusion. The schedule defines goods which can be exported. It is unfortunate that it was originally entitled "Purposes". That led to much debate. The noble Lord will see that we have tabled amendments to amend the wording to that of goods to be controlled.
Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn: I do not want to prolong the debate. However, does the Minister recall that for many years one of the reasons that successive governments gave for not introducing the 1970
UNESCO convention relating to the illicit traffic in cultural goods was the difficulty in defining precisely what cultural goods would be included under the UNESCO convention? I believe that that was resolved only when the European Community regulation dealing with a similar issue was introduced. Does not the Minister feel that he is rather over-simplifying what may be quite a complex matter?
Lord Sainsbury of Turville: I do not think that I can comment on the excuses previous governments have given for not introducing legislation or conventions. So far as I am aware, there has not been a great debate on the matter with regard to the Bill we are discussing. I say to the noble Baroness that there are no new controls for cultural objects contemplated. The dummy draft order prepared by the DCMS reflects simply the current controls under the Export of Goods (Control) Order 1992. There are no new issues so far as that is concerned.
I turn to the effect of the amendments. They would impose a requirement on the Government to carry out consultations with relevant industrial or cultural organisations before making export control orders under Clause 1. The Government believe that the amendments are unnecessary. I hesitate to use the word "unnecessary" as I know that the noble Baroness does not like that term. However, we feel that they are unnecessary and also have some unfortunate consequences.
As noble Lords will know, we plan a full public consultation in the spring on the intended controls to be set out in the draft orders to be made on implementation of the Bill's powers. We see this process as one that can helpfully inform all interested organisations about the new controls and also enable us to learn more about the concerns that they may have. This will follow extensive consultation that has already taken place on the draft Bill and before that on the White Paper on Strategic Export Controls, with each of those consultations eliciting responses from a number of organisations, including industrial and cultural ones. For example, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has consulted the Advisory Council on the Export of Works of Art which represents a wide range of views from the arts and antiquities trade as well as museums and galleries, and which is the body normally consulted by the DCMS on matters relating to export controls on cultural objects.
In addition to formal public consultations, the Government have also held meetings with various interested organisations to explain our thinking about the new controls. I take the point that it is not simply a question of consultation with industrial organisations. The NGOs have a great interest in and knowledge of this subject as will become clear in this debate. They need to be, and I hope have been, consulted properly.
The amendments could have some unfortunate consequences. Export controls may need to be implemented without delay to meet our obligations to international bodies. A requirement to consult every time an amendment order was made would prevent our implementing such obligations quickly.
In addition, as drafted the amendments would require consultations with industrial organisations about controls related to objects of cultural interest and consultations with cultural organisations in relation to strategic exports, which would not be appropriate. It is not a substantive point; we could correct it in the drafting. However, the speed of implementation is an important issue. For those reasons I invite the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Miller of Hendon: I thank the Minister for his response which I shall read carefully. However, before withdrawing the amendment, perhaps I may make one comment on behalf of my noble friend. I was interested in the Minister's comment that the issue of culture does not raise the same excitement. The subject was not mentioned in another place. I pay tribute to my noble friend for alerting the House to this important issue. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns moved Amendment No. 3:
- Page 1, line 3, at end insert ", subject to the provisions of paragraph 8 of the Schedule"
The noble Baroness said: In moving the amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 82, grouped with it.
The purpose of the amendment is to put on the face of the Bill the provisions of the schedule which appear in the dummy cultural order published by the Government. My intention is to pose a fundamental question. How do and how should the Government reach a judgment about which cultural items should or should not be granted an export licence? What processes of evaluation do the Government follow in making that decision? The dummy order states that all objects are prohibited from being exported unless they are licensed by the Secretary of State unless they fall into the categories listed in the schedule to the dummy order. It becomes somewhat tortuous.
Amendment No. 82 simply puts the categories listed in the dummy order on the face of the Bill. It is a probing amendment to elicit information from the Government.
In response to Amendment No. 2 the Minister said that no new issues are intended to be raised within the remit of the schedule to the dummy order. My question relates not only to the content of the schedule but also asks the Government why they have continued with the existing rules. I understand that they arise from the Export of Goods (Control) Order 1992. It has been around for a while. Why are we at that stage? Did the Government consider adopting different definitions?
Have the Government considered adding to subsections (2) and (3) the category of "child"; or is a child's property covered in some other way? Would "child" fall within category four on the basis that a
child's property is that of his or her parents? I am not a lawyer, as is the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury. I ask that question simply for information.The Government have stated that they will consult on the dummy order when it becomes a draft statutory instrument. The Minister's responses today are therefore important because they will inform that consultation process. Can the Minister confirm today that the format currently in the dummy order will not be affected by the government Amendment No. 81 to paragraph 8 of the schedule, tabled this week by the Government. The Government's new amendment removes the reference in paragraph 8 to secondary legislation. What is the significance of that? I beg to move.
Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn: The noble Baroness's amendment is, I think, regarded as a probing amendment. I am a little uncertain; I hope that the Minister will be able to explain the position to me. Such provisions as we see here do not offer the protection which currently exists for national treasures of recent production. I refer to paintings, drawings or manuscripts produced in the past 50 years. I understand that under the Waverley criteria the reviewing committee on works of art would be able to recommend to the Secretary of State that a temporary ban be imposed on the export of such works.
Let us imagine that the working drawings by Antony Gormley, our distinguished contemporary artist, of The Angel of the North had been sold and it was suggested that they might be exported. It would be a matter of concern. The reviewing committee might well wish to recommend that the Secretary of State impose a temporary ban. I have the impression that such an issue has not been contemplated here. I should like the Minister's assurance that the current provisions restricting the immediate import of national treasures of recent production could apply equally to exports. The scientific manuscripts of Crick and Watson would fall within this category.
I understand that they can currently be protected but I have the impression that there is a risk that that might not continue. I should like the Minister's assurance that I am in error on that point.
Lord Hylton: When replying, perhaps the Minister will say something about stolen and looted cultural goods. We all know that the major auction houses and the more reputable and bona fide dealers do their level best to prevent stolen and looted items being traded. That is obviously the right place to stop such trade if possible. Nevertheless, in recent years there have been a number of court cases where the provenance and origin of sometimes valuable items have been called into question. If the preliminary trade safeguards fail, could there be circumstances in which the Government would prohibit the export of such items?
5 p.m.
Lord Davies of Oldham: In responding to the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, I am in
danger of repeating a little of what my noble friend has already said in reply to Amendment No. 1, which was moved a few moments ago. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, will have already gathered that we can clarify one point, which is that from time to time we shall be referring to a dummy draft order to cover both concepts that she suggested might be a divisive issue for the Government. "Dummy draft order" is a phrase that we shall use about the Government's intentions on the orders referred to in the Bill.The Government believe that Amendment No. 3 is unnecessary because the enabling power under Clause 1(1) applies to cultural objects as it does to the export of strategic goods. The Government have published a dummy draft order covering export controls for cultural objects. It is not intended, as my noble friend said a few moments ago, to change substantially the existing export control regime for cultural objects and the dummy draft order largely reflects the provisions contained in the Export of Goods (Control) Order 1992. The noble Lord, Lord Renfrew, suggested that that order might not be the be-all and end-all of resolving such issues.
Of course, we recognise that there are aspects of that legislation that require further consideration. For example, the current definition of cultural objects in the order does not include fossils. To date the Government have been unable to find a definition of fossils that is acceptable to those with an interest in palaeontology matters. Work continues on finding a suitable definition, but until that work is completed, it will be difficult for us to make progress.
However, the term "objects of cultural interest" in the Bill was drafted in sufficiently wide terms to include objects of historical or scientific interest, so that when an acceptable definition of fossils does eventually emerge, they can be brought within the order-making powers of the Bill and can be utilised to amend the current definition of cultural objects in the dummy draft order. The Government do not consider that the Bill is an appropriate vehicle for defining cultural objects. Such detail should be set out in an order under the Bill.
An unfortunate consequence of Amendment No. 3 is that it introduces an ambiguity as to how the controls under the Bill are to operate and whether they cover strategic goods. The key point is that the Bill will provide the powers necessary to control the export of objects of cultural interest and strategic goods. Those powers will be exercised by means of separate orders under subsection (1), subject to parliamentary approval as provided for in Clause 12(5). At the very least it would be confusing to link the separate orders made under Clause 1(1) for the two distinct categories in the Bill. The considerations that apply to the making of orders on objects of cultural interest are self-evidently different from those that apply to the making of orders on strategic goods, and it is sensible to keep them distinct.
The effect of Amendment No. 82, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, spoke, is to define the cultural objects that will be subject to export controls and those
that are excepted from such controls. We believe that the amendment is unnecessary. I have already said that the Government do not intend to make a substantial change to the export control regime applicable to cultural objects. The Bill provides the enabling power in Clauses 1 and 6 for the order setting out the licensing regime for cultural objects. The dummy draft order largely reflects the provisions contained in the Export of Goods (Control) Order 1992. The amendment to which the noble Baroness spoke is contained in the current 1992 order and in the dummy order. The order is the appropriate place for defining the detail of the cultural objects that will be subject to the export controls.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for raising these issues. I pay tribute to the fact that culture is on our agenda. Not for the first time, it may be thought, that aspersions have been cast on the other place, but I am sure that it is because of the exigencies of time rather than interest in the subject on the part of my honourable friends at the other end of the Corridor. The Bill has given us the opportunity to explain the general application of export controls for cultural objects, and I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw the amendment.
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