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Lord Davies of Oldham: I believe in dealing with easy matters first. The easy matter is to tell the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, that exportation means "removal from this country". I hope that that assures him. I say that because I am briefed to respond as accurately and effectively as I can on matters cultural, and I noticed that he brought in the issue of the exportation of arms. My noble friend Lord Bach largely deals with that, and I find myself somewhat ill-equipped to address that point. I assure him that the question that he raised is answered in the terms that I have given.
The Government wish the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, to withdraw the amendment, although we value the opportunity it gives us to address some of the key issues—the cultural dimensions—of the Bill. The effect of the amendment would be to introduce a further prohibition or regulation to the export control powers in Clause 1 in respect of the loan of goods covered by the Bill to a person, company or institution outside the United Kingdom. The Government believe that the amendment is unnecessary because the power
to prohibit and regulate exports in Clause 1 certainly includes the power to provide for temporary export licences where, for example, cultural objects are loaned either by museums or private individuals to go on exhibition in foreign countries.As is currently the case, the Government will issue a number of open licences without the need to obtain an individual export licence from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. The two types of open licence currently in operation are the open general export licence, or OGEL, and the open individual export licence, or OIEL. The OGEL permits the export for up to three months of some common temporary exports and the re-export of some common temporary imports. An OIEL that is granted to a named individual, company or institution permits the temporary export of specified objects (for up to one year or, in some cases, two years) that are owned by them or in their care. In cases that are not covered by those two categories, an individual may apply for a temporary export for the loan of an item abroad. Such a licence is normally granted on condition that the object be returned by a specified date.
We are accordingly in a position to assure the noble Baroness that the order-making powers do extend to the loan of cultural objects. That is why the amendment is unnecessary.
The noble Baroness took the opportunity to raise two specific areas of considerable national interest. I believe that we all delight in the fact that the Royal Armouries has shown the enterprise to become involved in possible development in the United States with regard to its exhibits. I shall try to deal with the specific points raised by the noble Baroness in relation to the Royal Armouries in the order in which she raised them.
The Government's policy on the granting of an export licence does not vary according to whether the loan is made by an individual or by a museum. The granting of a licence is not based on whether the loan is short-term or long-term, and the DCMS does not define the length of term during which an object may be loaned. In the case of loans made by the national museums, that is a matter for the trustees of those institutions. The granting of an export licence is not in any way influenced by whether the loan involves a payment to the body which lends the item. Access is one factor that will be taken into account by the trustees in making their decision on a potential loan.
The noble Baroness referred to the answer given by my noble friend Lady Blackstone to the noble Lord, Lord Freyburg, just before Christmas. I seek to emphasise that the answer was not misleading. The Royal Armouries have informed the Government that the Owsley Brown Frazier Historical Arms Museum is prepared to fund both the capital and operating costs of the project in perpetuity. Therefore, the loan will take place on the basis that the full capital and operating costs of the project will be paid for by the Frazier Arms Museum. The Armouries aim to use the presence of such a loan in the United States to generate fund-raising revenue, at no expense to the taxpayer,
through sponsorship, membership programmes and retailing. Therefore, the only relevance to this Bill is the granting of a temporary export licence for the loan.The noble Baroness also referred to the Elgin Marbles. I see in my briefing notes that in brackets they are also referred to as the "Parthenon Sculptures". I shall refer to them as that. In the case of the British Museum, the trustees are similarly bound by their governing legislation—that is, the British Museum Act 1963. That legislation prohibits any de-accessioning of items within their collection, except in very restricted circumstances. But it does permit the lending of objects within the collection for public exhibition, subject to their condition and having regard, inter alia, to any risks to which the items are likely to be exposed. It is for the trustees of the British Museum to decide whether the Parthenon Sculptures, or Elgin Marbles, are offered on loan anywhere else. It is not a matter for the Government. This is certainly a decision that will be taken by trustees, and I can assure the noble Baroness that there is no question of pressure being applied.
Lord Burnham: Before the noble Lord sits down, does he realise that there was an anomaly in what he said? He referred to the funding of the armoury in perpetuity by the Americans but, on the other hand, he stated that the loan was for a specified and limited period, which is what is contained in the Bill.
Lord Davies of Oldham: I understand that the concept of "in perpetuity" signifies that the period of the loan is the period during which the Americans will be responsible for paying the costs. That is the perpetuity.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns: I thank my noble friend Lord Burnham for his late intervention. I shall want to consider that matter a little more carefully. I was certainly under the impression that a three-year licence commonly applied in cases such as that pertaining to the Royal Armouries. The matter of "in perpetuity" raises another issue which I shall need to consider further between now and Report.
I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, for obtaining from the Government the very clear explanation that removal on any terms is the rule that governs whether or not the Government impose export controls. I believe that that is a reassurance to us all.
I was also grateful to the Minister for clearly putting on the record today in response to my amendment the matter of open licences and how the two categories of those licences will operate. I am of course aware that there were references to that matter in the consultation document. But it was most helpful to have the issue explained so clearly today. The Minister also explained the processes that are followed in respect of decision-making in relation to loans.
I am grateful, too, for the Government's clarification of their position in relation to the Royal Armouries and, indeed, the Elgin Marbles. I am relieved to hear the Government state so clearly that it is a matter for the trustees alone to make that decision.
My noble friend Lord Brooke raised an interesting historical footnote with regard to the Elgin Marbles. I hope that we now have politicians who are as discreet in their comments as he has been and that consequently the Elgin Marbles will remain in this country "in perpetuity", which I believe is the right phrase to use today. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns moved Amendment No. 5:
- Page 1, line 17, at end insert "and whether or not they form the whole or part of an object of cultural interest".
The noble Baroness said: Again, this is a probing amendment and, on this occasion, it is to ask the Government whether they consider that vehicles, vessels and aircraft of an historical nature could fall within this category. I put down this amendment long before the Government's drastic redrafting of the schedule by the amendments which they tabled this week.
Quite simply, the question is: are those objects covered by this clause or are they covered only by the order-making power in paragraph 8 of the schedule as currently drafted? I am aware that the chassis of a De Lorean car—or perhaps parts of Concorde—could be considered to be an item of cultural interest now or in the future. Do they fall within this category or do they come under some other type of heading? Would they be governed by the rules in the dummy cultural order or not?
If not, that would of course bring cultural historical objects which are less than 50 years old within export control. That would address some of the issues raised earlier by my noble friend Lord Renfrew. Certainly the impression that I get from the amendments tabled by the Government this week is that they intend that items under 50 years old should be covered. From the Minister's earlier answer, I anticipate that we should be able to obtain that reassurance. I beg to move.
Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn: I rise to support the amendment moved by my noble friend. In doing so, I want to expand a little on the general issue of the powers of the Secretary of State to impose export controls in relation to the removal from the United Kingdom of objects of cultural interest, or cultural goods, including archaeological materials.
I also want to ask the noble Lord some questions about the existing working of the current system in that regard. It is well known that for many years the Reviewing Committee on the Export of Works of Art has worked consistently and successfully to retain in the United Kingdom, with the application of the Waverley criteria, works of art of outstanding national importance.
However, as I pointed out in the debate in this House on the reviewing committee's last annual report, members of that committee have not turned their minds to another issue which might be considered
part of the wider remit; namely, the prevention of the export from this country of cultural goods originating in other European Community states and covered by the legislation in such states protecting national treasures, despite the obligation to do so under United Kingdom law in accordance with the relevant EC regulation. That regulation appeared at that time under the signature of my noble friend, now Lord Waldegrave. I want to ask the noble Lord whether since 1992 the Secretary of State has ever refused an export licence on such grounds as he might be expected to do under Article 2 of that regulation.I admit that I should perhaps have chosen a different amendment under which to ask this question as I recognise that my query refers not only to vehicles and vessels. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to answer my question, even though I now realise that the matter would have been better raised under Amendment No. 2. I hope that the House and the noble Lord will forgive me on that point.
In general, these are matters that have been discussed by the Illicit Trade Advisory Panel, set up by the former Minister with responsibility for the arts under the chairmanship of Professor Norman Palmer. I am a member of that panel. The Government have made real progress on those issues by announcing their intention of ratifying the 1970 UNESCO convention and of stating their intention to introduce a new criminal offence of,
- "dishonestly to import, deal in or be in possession of any cultural object, knowing or believing that the object was stolen, or illegally excavated . . . contrary to local law".—[Official Report, 25/1/02; col. WA 222.]
Even more worrying are cultural objects originating within the United Kingdom that are the subject of illicit trade. That relates to a comment that was made from the Cross Benches. Must the safeguarding provisions apply only to objects entering this country from overseas? Should not Britain's own heritage also be protected?
The Minister with responsibility for the arts, the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, announced on 22nd January that she had placed a temporary ban on the export of a pair of late Bronze Age gold hair rings, stated by the reviewing committee,
- "to be of outstanding significance . . . for the understanding of the technical artistry of the insular Late Bronze Age gold-workers".
It may apparently be the case that those objects were later publicly sold in one of Britain's auction houses, but surely public sale does not in itself give legal title to the purchaser when the possessor was not in fact the legal owner of the goods. Surely we should apply to treasures from the soil of Britain the same protective safeguards which, under the EC regulation, we apply to treasures from other EC countries. Can the noble Lord explain how, even after a temporary ban, the Secretary of State could possibly award an export licence for national treasures whose discovery had, contrary to law, been concealed by the finder and whose ownership had not been openly determined by a coroner's inquest?
In supporting the amendment I seek an assurance from the noble Lord, which I hope he may well be minded to give, that the working of the export licensing system will indeed urgently be reviewed in order to prevent or at least to diminish the continuing export of illicit antiquities from this country. I ask for his assurance also that those antiquities that are protected by our own very modest United Kingdom antiquities legislation will be properly protected within the framework re-defined by the Export Control Bill and that the Secretary of State will no longer receive or indeed heed advice to grant an export licence, whether or not following a temporary ban, for antiquities that have, beyond reasonable doubt, been purloined and concealed following their discovery, in contravention of United Kingdom law.
5.30 p.m.
Lord Davies of Oldham: The Government believe that Amendment No. 5 is unnecessary because, quite apart from the fact that it is somewhat difficult to think of an example where a vehicle, vessel or aircraft forms part of a cultural object, where a vehicle, vessel or aircraft meets the definition of a "cultural object" set out in the dummy draft order it will be subject to export controls under the Bill. A First World War tank or a Gypsy Moth plane in working order, for example, would be covered by the export controls, not only because they meet the definition of cultural objects in the dummy draft order, but they may also be subject to controls in respect of strategic goods.
If an application for a licence for such an object were made to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and such an object were thought to be capable of having a relevant consequence in relation to the activities listed in the table referred to in the schedule, the DCMS would inform the DTI and the DTI would consider whether a licence were required in respect of an export for strategic goods.
We believe that rather than having the effect of clarifying subsection (6), the amendment could introduce an ambiguity into the Bill that is undesirable. There is no need to add the proposed wording for the avoidance of doubt because subsection (6) is quite clear.
I recognise that other issues have been brought into the discussion on this amendment. I shall do my best to respond to the noble Lord and if he finds my replies somewhat inadequate I am sure that we shall be able to engage in correspondence with him, or I shall ensure that the Minister or the Secretary of State does so. As the noble Lord is a member of the Illicit Trade Advisory Panel, he will be aware of the panel's recommendation in its report of December 2000 that a new criminal offence of dealing in illicit cultural property should be defined. The Secretary of State has accepted that proposal and is actively seeking an opportunity to include such an offence within future legislation.
The new criminal offence that we would seek to cover in legislation is,
- "to the extent it is not covered by existing criminal law, it be a criminal offence dishonestly to import, deal in or be in possession of any cultural object, knowing or believing that the object was stolen, or illegally excavated, or removed from any monument or wreck contrary to local law".—[Official Report, 25/1/02; col. WA 222.]
The noble Lord will also be aware that, on the basis of any refusal of an export licence by the Secretary of State, the Government have adopted into UK law the EU Council directive 93/7 on the return of cultural objects unlawfully removed from the territory of a member state. The practice is to examine routinely all applications for export licences to determine whether an item has legally left the country of origin. Therefore, the basis for a successful application would be an ability to ensure that such objects in no way fell into the category of having been illegally removed.
Therefore, I suggest to the noble Lord and to the noble Baroness that, in this respect, we have had the advantage of clarifying some of the issues relating to the Bill. We are absolutely sure that the Bill, as it stands, is quite clear on those issues with regard to cultural artefacts and their protection under the Bill. I hope that I have explained the way in which the system will work in order to assuage any doubts that the noble Baroness may have.
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