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Lord Sainsbury of Turville: This is a case where there is impeccable logic. I am very happy to be associated in this view with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott. We are obviously alone in sharing this view, but it seems to me quite clear that if a parliamentary committee, or a committee which involves parliamentarians, is involved in the decision-making process it makes it more difficult for Parliament subsequently to hold the executive liable.
I have listened to the arguments and I will take them away. We take this matter very seriously but, in view of what I have said, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury: We are grateful to the Minister for dealing with these amendments as he has and for being so good natured about the large number of interventions. It has made for a useful airing of the important issues involved.
In his response, he did not touch on the efficacy of prior scrutiny in political terms. Everyone has tried to urge upon him that this would be good for the Government, good for Parliament, good in terms of public opinion and good in terms of the quality of the outcome. He did not touch on any of that. It is a pity that the debate was dominated by the legal and constitutional issue.
The Minister said that he will consider these matters carefully. Perhaps I may suggest that he takes formal advice from Treasury counsel, or from another appropriate source, on the legal and constitutional issues. My belief is that the statement of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott—on which the Minister quite reasonably relied—was not an ex cathedra legal statement as regards the constitutional consequences of what is proposed, but the noble and learned Lord's political view as to the best way forward. We could ask the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott, what he meant. But when he said that Parliament should not become complicit in executive decisions by prior scrutiny, I believe that the word "should" related to politics and not to law.
We need to get to the bottom of the legal issue. If the Government are right about that, frankly, we must withdraw from the field. If the Government are wrong, and several distinguished barristers have said clearly that because this is an advisory decision there is no constitutional or legal impediment. I respectfully disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, on this issue. I do not believe that his distinction between a Select Committee and a committee of parliamentarians is the crucial issue. It is the advisory as opposed to the decisive quality of the matter that is at the core of the debate.
If the Government find that they are not right in their constitutional and legal position, I very much hope that they will have regard to the fact that no one in this House is grinding any political axe. We have a great many people with huge experience in the fields about which we are talking. The view of those who have spoken has been unanimous.
Again, we are grateful for the Minister's response. We hope that the matter can be returned to on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Davies of Oldham: I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
- House adjourned at eighteen minutes before midnight.
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