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Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Howell, will be pleased to know that

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former President Giscard d'Estaing has already started to change his mind substantially in the direction of democracy.

Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, I am glad to hear that. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, played his part in achieving that mind change.

I shall quickly explain a few ideas about how to beef up scrutiny. Such work is of course excellent and wonderful, but we could do much better. First, we should make the whole business mandatory and legal, which it currently is not—governments often override it. Secondly, we should seek to develop television coverage of the sittings of committees of this House. That is done with the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs in the House of Commons. Thirdly, we should require Ministers to discuss ideas for possible EC legislation with the committees before they become Commission initiatives or proposals. The noble Lord, Lord Williamson, developed that idea—he was absolutely right. We need what we might call a Second Reading debate on EU possibilities that the UK Government were minded to propose or support.

Fourthly, we should support the requirement that Commission and Directorate staffs should be obliged—I stress that—to appear before national parliamentary committees. That would be hard work and involve a busy life, but that is the price of democracy. Fifthly, we should have tighter mandating of Ministers, as is done in Denmark. They would have to consult parliamentary committees, or at least their chairmen, before conceding in "negotiations". Sixthly, we should have Joint Committee meetings between our two Houses of Parliament on big EU issues. They should have lots of television coverage and key witnesses should be available. Seventhly, we should require all EC instruments to be encased in debatable statutory instruments and, more so than is currently the case, in primary legislation, especially in relation to pillars two and three. Eighthly, we should require MEPs to attend committees more often, as the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, suggested, especially in relation to pillar one issues. In that regard, the European Parliament may already have amended certain developments and issues through co-decision-making, and we do not hear about them until it is too late. Finally, there is a case for having a Minister for EU affairs not only here in London but also in Brussels, who would return one day a week to report to a Joint Committee of both Houses and every three weeks to attend Foreign Office Question Time.

Those are the detailed, practical points. It could be argued that all of those points involve, as I said earlier, simply rearranging the deckchairs. It could be argued that the much deeper issue is whether that is any longer the right relationship between Brussels and national Parliaments, including ours. It could be argued that the Commission's monopoly on initiatives, which was built into the original treaties, is simply out of date and that our parliamentary committees should have the power to make proposals to the executive for onward transmission to the Council. It could also be argued

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that the doctrine of subsidiarity—which frankly is currently extremely feeble—should be given real substance by committing national Parliaments to debate not merely the case against new EU powers and competences, but also the reclamation of existing powers across a wide field. Again, I do not want to put words into the mouth of the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, but some of the ways in which he suggested that the Commission's agenda should be shaped by national parliaments seemed to be entirely appropriate.

That would require the amendment of treaties, of course, but that has been proposed by all sides. It would also require the amendment of the mantra of ever-closer union in the preamble to the Rome treaty and a step-change in the attitudes and public language of commissioners and officials—they are the servants of national legislatures, which brought them into being. National parliaments need reminding of that, too. Moreover, if the House of Lords and the House of Commons worked together and were adequately staffed, they could make huge inroads in terms of resisting the present unhealthily deferential or resigned attitudes towards the dominance of EU decisions and the EU law machine. That would be done in the cause of a stronger and more flexible union. That, more than anything else, would help to restore the present disconnection between EU affairs, national parliaments and politics at the grass roots. It would certainly do very much better than a second Chamber.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, before the noble Lord concludes, I add as a point of information that there is already provision for the televising of committees of this House. Indeed, when I was chair of a sub-committee of the European Union Committee, on several occasions Ministers attended and the proceedings were transmitted on television.

Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, I am very pleased to hear that. We clearly want more of it.

6.14 p.m.

Lord Grocott: My Lords, I join other noble Lords in welcoming the report and the diligence that members of the committee showed. Obviously I do not agree with all of its conclusions. As noble Lords made clear, there is no doubting the fact that tremendous work went into it. Although it was my duty to read the report, it was not an onerous duty; I enjoyed doing so.

It was not a surprise that many noble Lords were critical of the idea of a second chamber. I knew that the report was unanimous and a little research showed me that seven speakers today were members of the committee. I did a little arithmetic and worked out that a fair few noble Lords would be critical of the idea of a second chamber.

We should allow ourselves a certain amount of gentle self-deprecating humour at the notion of the second Chamber of this Parliament coming out pretty conclusively against the idea of a second chamber, not least because of the tremendous problems about the

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relationship between the two chambers, about which would deal with finance, and about sundry other matters. We have had a constructive debate, although my political antennae detected that not all noble Lords were 100 per cent behind the Government's position.

The idea of creating a second chamber of the European Parliament is not new, as my noble friend Lord Tomlinson and the report pointed out. Thoughts of having a second chamber for a European Parliament were first tabled as early as 1953 by the Assembly of the European Coal and Steel Community. The idea has been proposed on various occasions throughout the decades since then and in a number of different countries. As my noble friend Lord Tomlinson elegantly put it, it is an idea that has been knocking around for some time—rather like the two of us.

One of the most recent contributions to that debate was made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. I was pleased by that, not least because of his general warmth, but because, as my noble friend Lord Lea of Crondall put it, it is up to people to raise such issues and debates. Why do we always leave it to other countries in the EU to raise such discussions? I remind the House of my right honourable friend's comments. He said:


    "I . . . believe that the time has now come to involve representatives of national parliaments more . . . by creating a second chamber of the European Parliament".

He went on to highlight an important objective for the Government. He said that such a chamber would, among other things, enable us to,


    "do what we need to do at a European level but also . . . devolve power downwards".

He was talking about subsidiarity.

The Prime Minister's proposal, as set out in Warsaw, was a broad proposition; it was in no way—my noble friend Lord Barnett will be pleased to hear this—a blue-print. As the Select Committee report suggested, it has certainly initiated a debate, not least in this House. We should not be having this interesting debate were it not for the fact that the proposal is on the table.

The matter has certainly evoked different responses from different sides of the European debate. I noted the comments in paragraph 39 of the report that some critics of the second chamber proposal have voiced the suspicion that this is an attempt by the Government to "disable" the EU. Other concerns, coming from the opposite side of the European debate, were that a second chamber was a step too far towards a federalist model for Europe. I am not sure what one should say when one is in the middle of such a discussion; if one's position is being attacked by both wings of the debate, perhaps it has one or two components that are well worth considering.

One or two noble Lords stressed the fact that despite differing conclusions, there is considerable agreement among many noble Lords. There is, I believe, consensus—the noble Lord, Lord Howell, made this point—on some of the problems. For example, paragraph 20 of the report provides a very useful

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summary of the problems that a second chamber would need to address. They include the widespread dissatisfaction with current institutional structures in the EU and a lack of connection with EU affairs among the electorate. It also sets out the basic thinking of what a second chamber might look like, with members being drawn from national parliamentarians, whose role might be to monitor subsidiarity and the common foreign and security policy. That point was discussed by the noble Lord, Lord Williamson.

The guiding principle underpinning the Government's proposal for a second chamber is the need to strengthen the links between national parliaments and parliamentarians, and thereby citizens, to the decision-making process of the European Union. The Government are firmly wedded to that.

No one can doubt the paramount need to make the European Union relevant and of interest to the people of the EU. One has only to look at the very disappointing figures for electoral turn-out at the last European elections in June 1999 when voter turn-out in the UK fell below 25 per cent for the first time. The noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, was concerned about low turn-out figures in elections generally. The noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, expressed concern that many members of the public are not interested in governments being scrutinised by parliaments; he suggested that they are more interested in the way that governments are scrutinised by television interviewers. I agree with him that that matter needs to be addressed by all parliamentarians who are concerned about parliament.

If we are to develop a European Union in which the people of Europe feel directly involved—we must certainly do that—we cannot simply dismiss out of hand the idea of a second chamber. Therefore, although overall the Select Committee's report does not come down in favour of a second chamber, I was pleased to see in paragraph 48 a clear acceptance of that key principle; that is, the importance of addressing the problems associated with a gap between the institutions of the European Union and its citizens—a point emphasised strongly by my noble friend Lord Grenfell.

I was also very pleased to see the Select Committee's recognition of the Prime Minister's efforts to tackle that issue. I noticed that my noble friend Lord Barnett complained of the report being excessively kind to the Prime Minister. I can only say to him that, when he was a very distinguished and popular member of the Labour Cabinet in the other place between 1974 and 1979, my recollection is that he was always excessively kind to Prime Ministers. I hope that the position has not changed now that he is on the Back Benches.

No doubt we are all too keenly aware that these days speculation on European Union matters can quickly turn any sensible and coherent proposal into an extravagant flight of fancy. Therefore, although these are early stages—as I said, this is not a blueprint—I want to spell out what, in our view, a second chamber would not be.

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The Government do not envisage a second chamber being a permanent institution based in Brussels. I believe that, to some extent, many of the problems of dual mandate mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, and others, stem from the idea of such a chamber being what we generally recognise chambers to be. But we envisage it meeting perhaps three or four times a year. It need not be large or expensive. Of course, today's technology allows conversations and debates to take place without people being physically in the same place at the same time. A second chamber would not be a rival to the European Parliament, which would remain the key legislative and budgetary partner to the Council; rather, it would complement the European Parliament. It would not enter into the detail of legislation or have a right of veto.

Many very interesting contributions were made in relation to the question of dual mandate—that is, whether or not parliamentarians could serve two chambers and work at two locations. I found that particularly interesting coming from the noble Lord, Lord Jopling. He gave us insights, which we do not often receive, into the role of a Chief Whip. I should like him to develop that further when he has the opportunity.

The noble Lord rightly pointed out—I am sure that great difficulties are involved—the danger that exists for anyone who serves in the European Parliament of being detached from the national parliament. I do not doubt for a moment that there are tremendous pressures on MPs. I say gently and sincerely to the noble Lord that on a number of occasions when he was in the other place he chaired committees on reform of the procedures of the other place—perhaps one day he will work on the procedures in this House—and at the same time was an effective Member of Parliament. I view that as carrying out two jobs; MPs and Members of this House frequently find themselves being asked to do two jobs.

A number of noble Lords were concerned about that point, including the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond. But my noble friend Lord Desai came nobly and effectively to the rescue by pointing out that some countries are a little larger than the United Kingdom; that it is possible to travel and thus to represent larger areas. Perhaps the House will allow me to mention briefly an anecdote which is burned on my memory. I once attended a conference of parliamentarians in Ottawa. As we were about to depart, I discovered that the Canadian Member of the Parliament from Ottawa, who represented a constituency on the west coast of Canada, would take longer to get home to his constituency than I would to my constituency in Telford. Of course problems arise in very large countries, but the problem of people sitting simultaneously in two parliamentary bodies should not be insuperable.

We cannot ignore the fact that the European Union plays an ever-more integral part in our daily lives. Decisions taken every day in Brussels have an impact on our lives here. Therefore, it is vital—this came home time and again in the contributions to the

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debate—that national parliamentarians become more involved in the decisions taken in Brussels. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, made that point strongly.


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