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Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, when I represented the then Department of National Heritage at the Dispatch Box, I took advantage of my position to pay a thorough visit to Apsley House, which I absolutely loved, especially the pictures. I had no idea that through sheer good fortune it had amassed such a fine collection. I am sorry that the Victoria and Albert Museum, with its great expertise, is giving up responsibility, but I suppose that I understand the reason why.
The noble Baroness mentioned that items may be brought from Strafield Saye to Apsley House. I have no idea to whom those items belong. Do they belong to the family or to the general public? I think that there are more than enough things to see in Apsley House as it stands. It would be a pity if it were cluttered, rather than giving one a little lebensraum as one goes round. I should like to know about the items from Strafield Saye, which is also well worth a visit.
Viscount Falkland: My Lords, the Minister's presentation was interesting and encouraging. I have great confidence following it and, on behalf of these Benches, I am sure that in implementing the order the Government will be sensitive and appropriate to the historical importance of Apsley House and its importance as a tourist site, among other things.
In my youth—I think I was only 22—I worked for a genealogical publication and had to research the Wellesley family. I got in touch with the seventh Duke, who had presented Apsley House in 1947. He kindly invited me to lunch, which was a daunting experience for a 22 year-old. I have never been invited to any meal by a Duke since. Young people nowadays may be rather surprised that one was daunted by such an experience, but in those days a Duke was really something. The seventh Duke was certainly really something. He was an eminent diplomat and had held various offices, as well as being in charge of surveying the Royal works of art—the King's works of art—and had also been a distinguished trustee of the National Gallery.
I may say that the luncheon went extremely well: my genealogical points were answered satisfactorily and he had with him his distinguished librarian. There was an interesting library in Apsley House, as well as some interesting pictures of Spanish origin and other items. I feel rather remiss in not having visited since. I was encouraged by what the Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay of St Johns, said. At the time, at 22, I had rather too much of the iron Duke, because I was educated—if that is not too strong a word for it—at a school founded in memory of the royal Duke. I see sitting in his place the right reverend prelate the Bishop of Oxford, who was educated properly at the same institution.
I was so impressed and heartened by that visit to Apsley House that I remember thinking that it could become a really great attraction for students and tourists alike, as indeed it has. One remarkable characteristic of No. 1 London, as it is called—so it was not difficult for me to find when I went to lunch with the Duke—is that it gathers together a number of interesting items related to the first Duke of Wellington and his campaigns. In particular, I recall the bivouac that he used at the battle of Waterloo and various other pieces of weaponry, hats and insignia, all of which added up to, to use the modern expression used by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, a good visitor experience. That is not an expression I use, although I do talk about my educational experience, which is somewhat different. It is a remarkable place.
I am sure the noble Baroness will agree that contact with the family needs to be maintained. The seventh Duke gave the house to the nation. The apartments at the top of the building were arranged so that the family could stay there, with arrangements for entertaining and so on. Those have all worked well.
We must count this building as one of the great houses of England. Those great houses are always better presented if the family remains associated with them, but that is not always possible. I give this note of warning, and I am sure that it will not occur in the arrangements that the Government will make. However, when bodies are appointed to look after such houses one must ensure that the personalities involved will work with the family.
The family still maintains a strong interest in Apsley House. A number of items in Stratfield Saye could well be placed in Apsley House. However, I take the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington. It would be a mistake to clutter the house. The relationship between the family and whoever is responsible for the building should be close, sensitive and happy. In that way, one increases its attraction.
I am encouraged by the Minister's remarks about the educational aspect. It is important that young people should have the opportunity to be educated about one of the great figures of our history who has been somewhat ignored, as have most of our historical figures. We are going through a phase where history is not fashionable. Sadly, nowadays children will not know much about the Duke of Wellington. If they attend Wellington College, they will do so because
they will see the pineapples which the Duke liked and history is rammed down the throat. However, it is no longer a quasi-military establishment, which is a relief.The Victoria and Albert Museum has done a good job over the years. We understand why it does not find it possible to continue to run the museum aspect of the house. We have great confidence in the new director of the Victoria and Albert Museum, Mark Jones. He has a large task on his hands. There are important developments for that great museum. He wants to keep his eye on the ball. I understand that Apsley House would be a distraction. It is the time for this change to take place.
We welcome this sensible order. When the Minister has answered the searching questions of the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, I shall be even further assured that it is a sensible measure which will lead to this attraction being increasingly important and a centre of education.
1 p.m.
Lord Blaker: My Lords, first, having recently visited the museum I found it an educational experience. But more than that, it was an exciting artistic experience because the collections are magnificent. I welcome the Minister's remarks about the importance which will continue to be attached to the educational aspects of what the museum is doing. They are immensely important. I am glad that she spelt out so fully what is being done.
Secondly, I refer to access. When I first went to the museum I was rather terrified at the thought of approaching it. One sees the traffic hurtling along that very wide road and there is no obvious indication that it is perfectly safe to get there. There is very little advertising of the fact that one can cross the road underground in total safety from three directions. Can the Minister ensure that that situation is improved? Potential visitors should be more numerous although the situation is developing well, as the noble Baroness indicated when she cited the figures of attendance. Can the noble Baroness ensure that that somewhat frightening deterrent is changed so that people realise that it is totally safe to go to the museum?
Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, I am grateful for the welcome given to the order from all sides of the House. I shall do my best to answer the questions put in particular by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay. However, they are rather detailed and if I cannot do so, I shall obtain the answers and write to her.
The noble Baroness asked when the hand-over will take place. We hope that it will be some time in the late autumn of this year. I think that it will take that amount of time for the process to be gone through properly. Noble Lords would want that to be done properly.
She asked about repairs and maintenance and what would happen if there were an overrun. In any contract, it is important to ensure that the bidder pays for any overruns. That will apply with regard to capital contracts at Apsley House as it would anywhere else.
The noble Baroness asked about the pension position after the transfer takes place of staff who currently work there. I cannot add a great deal to what I said in my opening remarks. We shall act in accordance with Cabinet Office guidance on the transfer of staff. We shall ensure that the rights of existing staff are protected.
She asked about accountability. The contract will be managed and overseen by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. I hope that there will be no problems. However, if there were to be a problem about the contract being met, the DCMS could terminate the contract. I hope that that is a clear response.
The noble Baroness asked about the process of market testing; and how many organisations might bid for the contract. I have no idea. I do not know how many people are likely to do so. We know that one body is interested. But it is quite likely that there may be others.
The noble Baroness asked what initial funding meant. It means five years and then it would be right to have a review. As I hope I made clear, the capital works will continue to be funded by the DCMS. I do not anticipate any problems about that.
The noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, asked about objects at Stratfield Saye. They belong to the family, but I know that the family is willing to loan them to the museum. It is intended to make the museum more like the home of the Duke of Wellington than simply a collection of exhibits. I accept the need to ensure that there is no cluttering up. I am sure that that can be avoided. I agree with the noble Baroness about the wonderful quality of the collections at Apsley House, especially the paintings. But I have also seen some wonderful objects at Stratfield Saye. Far more people would be able to see them in London so it is a helpful and generous offer from the family that more objects should be shown in London.
I am sorry that the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, has not had any further invitations from dukes. Perhaps some will now be forthcoming. I am grateful for his welcome for what the Government are proposing, particularly what he said about education. I do not agree that history is not fashionable; it is very fashionable. Large numbers of children and young people are interested in history, and they ought to be interested in the first duke and his many exploits, as a general and as a politician.
The noble Viscount is, of course, right in what he says about the V&A having many other considerations that it wants to fulfil, to ensure that the enormous success of the British galleries continues and that the work that goes on in the V&A and in the other museums for which they are responsible continues to prosper and improve.
The noble Lord, Lord Blaker, asked about access to Apsley House. There are underpasses at Hyde Park Corner, so one can go underneath the road, rather than risk one's life trying to cross the road. I accept that the traffic there is somewhat intimidating, but I
doubt whether my colleagues in the Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions or Westminster City Council can, in fact, hugely reduce the flow of traffic.
I also accept what the noble Lord said about the need for good advertising and marketing of one of London's great gems. I am sure that whoever takes on responsibility in the new trust will be aware of that.
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