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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, no thoughts are unpalatable—it would just be a bad thing to do. What we have to do now is to carry out our assessment of the five economic tests, which is what the Treasury is going to do. When and if we reach the conclusion that the five economic tests have been met, the issue will then be decided by government, by Parliament and by the people of this country. There is no point in rushing decisions of that sort.
Lord Lawson of Blaby: My Lords, does the Minister agree with the remarks made yesterday at Chatham House by Mr Ed Balls? It would certainly dispel some of the confusion if he could say clearly that he does. In particular, does he agree that sterling's current rate is not opportune if one is thinking of joining the euro? Equally, does he agree that it would be wholly wrong to massage down the rate in order to seek to join?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I am afraid that I have not had the advantage of reading the remarks by the economic adviser to the Treasury. Although I shall do so with great interest, I am unable to comment on them at the moment.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, and others suggest that the best way of achieving a stable currency is to join the euro. However, is it not a fact that, in the past four years, the most unstable currency in the world has been the euro? In fact, the euro has depreciated against every other major currency, including our own, by at least 15 per cent and against the American dollar by much more.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, it certainly was the case that, in the initial months or so following the euro's introduction, there was a decline in its value. However, the figures for the period show that variations in the euro-sterling exchange rate and in the Bank of England's effective exchange rate against all currencies very closely follow the same pattern. I do not think that that leads us to the conclusion that the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, would wish us to reach.
Lord Saatchi: My Lords, as always the Minister is very relaxed about the sterling exchange rate. Is he equally unconcerned about the position of Britain's balance of payments, perhaps the acid test of our competitiveness? Last year it fell into an all-time record deficit of £33 billion, a staggering sum which amounts to nearly 8 per cent of our GDP.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Saatchi, wishes to table a Question on the balance of payments he is entirely free to do so.
Lord Blackwell: My Lords, the Minister may not have read Mr Balls's remarks, but can he repeat the
assurances he has previously given the House that the Government will not intervene to attempt to change the exchange rate, and in particular the sterling-euro exchange rate, prior to a referendum?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I have always said, when answering questions such as this, that if we allow for the fact that the size of our reserves, both those held by the Treasury and by the Bank of England, are equal to approximately one day's trading on foreign exchange markets, the opportunities for intervention are extremely modest. Any intervention that took place would have to be by common agreement among the major economies of the world. I can probably go so far as to say that that is unlikely to be achieved.
Public Processions: Policing
3.1 p.m.
Lord Hardy of Wath asked Her Majesty's Government:
- What guidance has been given to police forces in regard to the holding of traditional and peaceful parades and ceremonial events by veterans' associations or voluntary uniformed youth organisations.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Rooker): My Lords, the Association of Chief Police Officers has issued guidance to police forces on the policing of public processions and events. The Government fully support ACPO in its view that events of national significance, such as Armistice Day parades and services, should be allowed to proceed. Such events, including those involving scouts and guides, should also be supported by local government, by which we mean that they should not be a means of raising revenue.
Lord Hardy of Wath: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer, which suggests that the Government are as well disposed to these events as they are to the work of the organisations concerned. In view of that, will Her Majesty's Government ensure that both local authorities and police forces are advised that it is in the interests of the community for these organisations to prosper and for their activities to continue to command public support and helpfulness?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I have always taken the view that that is what people pay their local taxes for and therefore it would be quite wrong for these ex-service veterans and uniformed youth, most of which, though not all, are charitable groups—they are not commercial undertakings—to be prevented from holding traditional parades by excessive charging for road closing. That is a matter for local authorities and not the police. To that extent the ACPO advice is useful. It has not yet been ratified by the Local Government Association. I hope that it will be.
However, the position stands that these events should be supported and should not be snuffed out by excessive charges for closing roads.
Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, I echo the thanks of the noble Lord, Lord Hardy, for the Minister's helpful response. Can the Minister confirm that ACPO will not set a prescriptive list in stone? Many new organisations are springing up which give sustained and devoted public service and may well be the boy scouts of the future. Can the Minister assure the House that ACPO guidelines will allow for developments to include such organisations in the future?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I certainly hope so. I declare an interest in that I was in the BB rather than the scouts. When we paraded on a Sunday around Birmingham as the ninth company in the 1950s the roads were a lot safer. That is a crucial point for the youth organisations; the roads must be safe. Tragedies have occurred in the past.
Many groups exist throughout the country which are not necessarily national. Many are youth groups. They organise annual customary events and they should be allowed to flower in the future. They should not be prevented from doing so by excessive bureaucracy and over-charging by local authorities. In respect of ACPO, the police would not charge anyway. They would not be involved in the policing of such events.
Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hardy of Wath, would not have had to ask this Question if it had not been for the officious application of regulations by a particular person in a particular place. We must therefore acknowledge that a form of regulation exists.
Can the Minister assure the House that there is sufficient discretion within the regulations to ensure that this situation need not arise again? If he cannot give that assurance, can he assure the House that he will take the matter away and look at it to ensure that sufficient discretion is introduced in the future?
Lord Rooker: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, is quite right. It is not for me to speak for my noble friend. But I suspect the Question was prompted by an event last year involving girl guides in the Rotherham area. They did not proceed with their parade because of a £500 charge for road closing for 30 minutes. I might add that it was not a small group; it involved 1,000 girl guides.
But that is not the point. We are coming up to the summer and the Golden Jubilee. Many such events will be planned. We do not want them snuffed out because of excessive bureaucracy or because some hard-pressed treasurers from local government see it as a revenue-raising operation. That is neither the intention of the Government nor of ACPO, and should not be the intention of local government. I have already gone much further than I should have gone in my response today. But I have made it abundantly clear that I fully support the thrust behind my noble friend's Question.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate: My Lords, my noble friend the Minister mentioned ACPO guidance. Does he agree that there may be a problem with ACPO guidance in that police chiefs do not have to accept it? There may be a case for strengthening the backbone of ACPO in that type of situation.
I suggest it is wrong in principle that people in different areas should receive different treatment according to where they live simply because the chief constables are different. I hope the Minister agrees with me that ACPO guidance should carry more weight.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, it is up to police chiefs. The decision to charge for services is a matter for the chief constable. But the ACPO policy encourages the police to support the events we have been discussing which are of national and local significance—scouts and guides, armistice and ex-service veterans—without charge. But normally the police would not be involved. Road closures are a matter for local authorities and not the police. In fact, the police do not have any legal power to stand at road junctions to prevent traffic as a march goes past. These issues are totally different from public order issues where notice is required to be given. I have no knowledge of different chief constables operating the policy differently. I certainly hope that the ACPO guidance will be accepted and ratified by the Local Government Association.
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