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Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, can the noble Baroness inform the House whether the words "social partnership" have ever passed her lips?

Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, they have indeed. I believe in social partnership; I do not believe in it when it has gone wrong.

Mr Crow's avowed long-term objective is to secure the re-nationalisation of the railways. Some unions have still to learn that their members' prosperity and job security depends on the prosperity and competitiveness in the world marketplace of their employers. That is the truth: they must work together. If one does not work with the other, it is no good.

We must also examine the rather curious provisions of Clause 49, which relates to work-focused interviews for partners. The Explanatory Notes tell us that,


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I see the hand of the Treasury in that, as it seeks to cut down benefit entitlements by trying to coerce the other partner into work. I am relieved—the noble Lord may agree with me—that the Conservative Party did not come up with that concept. The howls emanating from the other side of the House would have been deafening, and I would have been in more trouble than, it seems, I sometimes am.

What a badly drafted clause it is. A "partner" is a person who is a member of the same "couple" as the claimant. A "couple" is then defined as having,


    "the same meaning as in the Contributions and Benefits Act".

Apart from putting a lay claimant to the trouble of looking at another Act, instead of simply repeating the definition, the draftsman may well have got the name of the Act wrong. I hope that the Minister will put that right at the next stage.

What, in fact, is a partner if the couple are not married? The 1992 Act refers to an unmarried couple as a man and a woman living together. Will the Benefits Agency demand the right to review couples' sleeping arrangements? If the provision does not apply to same-sex couples who do not have to submit to the interview, there would seem to be some discrimination against heterosexual couples. Perhaps the Minister will consider inserting a clause with a clearer definition, entirely self-contained within the Bill, so that every claimant and his or her partner will know their obligation without reference to a law library or a lawyer.

What is the whole purpose of the exercise when, as the notes make clear,


    "The measure will not place any requirement on partners beyond taking part in interviews. (For example, they will not be required to attend training courses or seek work)"?

We know that the work-focused interviews will require the Government to take on up to 650 extra civil servants at a cost of about £35 million, and even the Treasury will not give an estimate of the savings—if any—that it will make as a result of that piece of job creation.

Before leaving Clause 49, which is in the "Miscellaneous and General" part of the Bill, I ask the Minister to confirm whether it is part of—or, indeed, instead of—the welfare Bill, which was mentioned in the Queen's Speech, as distinct from this Bill, which, as I have already said, was not.

Schedule 7 contains what are called "minor and consequential amendments". I give the Minister advance notice that I shall introduce one of my own to clear up an ambiguity in the 1999 Act, which he and I have discussed verbally and in correspondence.

It is difficult for me to come to a conclusion about the Bill. Like the proverbial curate's egg, it is certainly good in parts. On the other hand, there are parts where it is clear that the Government are working to a different agenda. There are also parts in which the Government want to regulate strictly the purely personal working relationship between small employers and their staff. There is even an agenda of creating a working environment in the United Kingdom equal to the rigid practices applicable on

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mainland Europe, ignoring, say, Germany which must now re-think the social costs that have left 4 million people unemployed. Perhaps the view of those of us on these Benches can best be summarised by a quotation from the amendment to the Second Reading Motion in the other place:


    "although it contains welcome measures which promote family friendly practices . . . and which seek to improve dispute resolution procedures, it depends excessively on secondary legislation which is likely to impose significant extra burdens on business, especially small businesses; and . . . will impose extra costs on business, further damaging British competitiveness at a time when manufacturing industry is already in a fourth successive quarter of recession".

Lord McCarthy: My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree with me that when her party—and the party of the noble Lord, Lord Henley, who is sitting behind her—was in power, there were just as many regulations as we have? Is the noble Baroness telling us that, if her party ever got into government again, it would have no regulations?

Baroness Miller of Hendon: My Lords, I shall say nothing of the kind. I would never commit myself or my party—which will be in government—to that. Since the Labour Government took us into the social chapter, the number of directives has grown enormously.

4.9 p.m.

Lord Razzall: My Lords, as the Minister will be aware, we on these Benches have, unlike those on the Conservative Benches, consistently supported the Government on the three major pieces of employment legislation that they have brought in since taking office in 1997. That has been our position, and we welcome the provisions of the Bill in so far as they introduce maternity, paternity and adoption leave, and we also welcome the introduction of flexible working practices.

However, we are concerned that a Bill which we would have assumed was designed to deal with those matters, providing continuity to the previous three pieces of legislation brought in by the Government, has had added to it a number of provisions that are worrying. Our concerns may not be for the same reasons as those of the noble Baroness who has just spoken, but rather for a number of reasons which I shall try to summarise in the course of my remarks.

First, I turn to Parts 2 and 3 of the legislation dealing with reforms to employment tribunals and dispute resolution procedures. In his opening remarks, the Minister referred to the Employment Tribunal System Taskforce, recently set up by the Lord Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry to consider how the employment tribunal system could be made more efficient and cost effective for users. As the Minister indicated in his opening remarks, the taskforce is due to report in the spring of this year. However, notwithstanding the report of the taskforce, which was commended by the Minister in his opening speech, we find that the Government and, presumably, the Department of Trade and Industry have taken the

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view that they will not wait for that report, but rather they will put their imprimatur on the Bill with regard to what they already believe employment tribunal reform should be. The Bill must be brought forward now in order to secure the worthwhile alterations on maternity leave, paternity leave and so forth.

On reading the debate held in another place, it appears that that has been based on an assumption made and voiced, I think, by one of the Government Ministers in another place, Alan Johnson, that the DTI believes that 62 per cent of all cases that come before employment tribunals in this country are brought forward in a form that could have been resolved by grievance or dispute procedures. Despite considerable attempts made over the past few months by the noble friends of the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, to establish where that figure came from, we have not yet received a satisfactory answer.

I am sure that noble Lords will be disturbed by the significant concerns expressed by the president of the Employment Tribunals for England and Wales. He is of the view that those figures are incorrect—

Lord Sainsbury of Turville: My Lords, I rise briefly to point out to the noble Lord that, as has been debated in this House, we have brought forward the two reports and they have been deposited in the Library of the House.

Lord Razzall: My Lords, I accept the point made by the Minister. However, I am sure that he is aware that Judge Prophet, the president of the Employment Tribunals for England and Wales, takes the view that the figure cannot be correct because a large proportion of those who come before employment tribunals have already left employment as a result of alleged dismissal, redundancy or whatever it might be. Therefore he finds it difficult to accept the figure used by the DTI in its dispute resolution document; that is, that 62 per cent of all cases are brought by those who ought to have gone through the grievance procedures.

However, in a sense that is by the way because the significant point here, and to which I shall return, is that the Employment Tribunal System Taskforce was set up precisely to look at these issues. When the Minister responds to our debate, I should like him to justify why, at a point before the taskforce has reported, Her Majesty's Government have felt it necessary to implement the provisions of Part 2 and, to some extent, Part 3. The assumption being made by many working in the employment tribunals field is that this has happened because the DTI has an agenda with which they disagree. It may well be that the DTI is correct in its assumption on the agenda, but bearing in mind the strong representations that have been made by the president of the Employment Tribunals for England and Wales, and bearing in mind the Government's welcome commitment to consultation in relation to such issues, I think that the Government do need to justify why at this stage they are tacking on these measures to such a worthwhile Bill. I mention that in particular because, as was indicated both by the

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noble Baroness and by the Minister, we can anticipate further employment legislation from the Government into which the measures could have been fitted perfectly easily once the taskforce has reported.

Significant issues need to be discussed in relation to Part 3, many of which we shall wish to probe in Committee. In general terms, concerns have been expressed in a number of quarters to the effect that the Bill's proposed dispute resolution procedures will undermine ACAS. Noble Lords will be aware that the ACAS Code of Practice on Discipline and Grievance is widely adhered to and respected. Ministers in another place have admitted that there is no doubt that, if the Bill is passed in its current form, significant alterations will have to be made to the ACAS code of practice. Concerns have been expressed that the code will be watered down rather than strengthened, as it were, in the light of the provisions of the Bill. We would have assumed that the code should have been strengthened. Furthermore, it has been implied that best practice, as set out by ACAS, is not suitable for small employers. That, I think, is an assumption that this House should make at its peril.

A number of specific clauses in the area of dispute resolution have given cause for concern and will need to be dealt with in Committee and perhaps on Report. I turn first to Clause 34(2) which will amend Section 98 of the Employment Rights Act 1996. Noble Lords will know that this provides that dismissal will not be unfair for the reason only that a procedure has not been followed. From these Benches we take the view that this subsection provides rather a blunderbuss approach to overturn a decision reached by the House of Lords in 1988 which will be familiar to all practitioners in the area. However, in Committee we shall want to probe whether it will be more difficult to persuade human resources managers to follow a procedure if they think that they can get away with not following it simply by arguing that the employee would have been dismissed anyway. Serious concerns have been expressed about the "blunderbuss effect" caused by the drafting of this clause.

The second point that I wish to highlight in my remarks on Second Reading with regard to dispute resolution concern the modified procedures provided in Schedule 2. Concerns have been expressed with regard to the use of the modified procedures in cases of gross misconduct. We understand clearly the intention of the legislation, but it is possible that rogue employers will seek to use the modified procedures set out in this schedule in an abusive manner. In Committee we shall need to look carefully at those issues.

As I said earlier, we welcome Clause 45 and the introduction of the provisions on fixed term work. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, will know that these provide for the implementation of European Council Directive 1999/70/EC. However, we should like to ask why the Government have chosen to limit the provisions to employees only rather than to apply them to all workers. Certain categories of workers

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such as agency staff and casual workers are to be excluded from these welcome provisions. We shall seek to probe that area in Committee.

Clause 49 is a cause of considerable concern because apparently it would give JobCentre staff full discretion in deciding whether or not the partner of someone claiming benefit should be called for interview. Such a measure clearly requires primary legislation. The benefits in question include not only income support and jobseeker's allowance but incapacity benefit, severe disablement allowance and invalid care allowance—which suggests that some partners of people in receipt of benefits payable to carers and disabled people would be expected to attend an interview or face one at home. They may come under pressure at an interview—on the assumption that if they can turn up for one, they can turn up for a job interview and take a job. The Government need to look seriously at the implications of Clause 49—particularly for disabled persons and their partners.

Having expressed some of our reservations about the Bill, I welcome the provisions in respect of maternity, paternity and adoption leave, and flexible working time. We regret, however, that the Government have chosen to add a hotchpotch of measures—many of which are ill thought out and ought to be subject to separate legislation.


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