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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: Well, my Lords, we seem to have come to the crux of the argument in this debate. Although the noble Earl, Lord Howe, suggested that when we discussed the matter in Committee and on Second Reading, we came to an inconclusive conclusion, I believe that the evidence is clear that the impact of the Bill will be to reduce tobacco consumption in this country. As such, it is to be welcomed and supported. A convincing case has not been made for a sunset clause to be used in the Bill.
Two years ago, in its report, Nicotine Addiction in Britain the Royal College of Physicians stated that smoking causes one in every five deaths in Britain and the loss of more than 550,000 years of life before the age of 75 and that it is the single most important health problem in Britain. Martin Broughton, the chief executive of BAT, said in The Times this morning that he understands that smoking carries health risks. That in itself justifies taking strong action to try to reduce the prevalence of smoking.
At Second Reading, I set out why the bulk of the evidence suggests that the Bill is likely to bring about a modest but real reduction in smoking levels. I mentioned the Smee report, commissioned and published, to their credit, by the previous government, which concluded that countries with an advertising ban experienced a subsequent fall in smoking on a scale that could not reasonably be attributed to other factors.
As long ago as 1989, the US Surgeon-General concluded that,
- "the collective empirical, experiential and logical evidence makes it more likely than not that advertising and promotional activities do stimulate cigarette consumption".
More recently, the World Bank, in its report, Curbing the Epidemic, found:
- "A recent study of 22 high-income countries based on data from 1970 to 1992 concluded that comprehensive bans on cigarette advertising and promotion can reduce smoking".
I listened with great care to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, when he suggested in the first place that, if we decided to prevent tobacco companies from competing with one another by means of advertising, we will force them to compete in the only other way open to them—price. The noble Earl expressed concern that, if the average price of tobacco fell, consumption would rise. I can reassure the House that the Government recognise that that is one of the ways in which tobacco companies may strive to knock down the price of their cigarettes to fend off their competitors. Any widespread fall in prices could be met by action by the Government to review the structure and rates of excise duties on tobacco products. I assure the House that we will keep that matter under close review.
The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, raised the other familiar issue—smuggling. Of course, the Government are concerned about the impact of the smuggling of tobacco goods. We have introduced a strategy to take away the profits of tobacco smuggling by hitting all aspects of the problem: first, by seizing massive volumes of cigarettes at the ports before they can come onto the streets and, then, by tasking local customs fraud teams, supplemented by a national mobile task force, to blitz potential hot spots repeatedly. In the Pre-Budget Report of November 2001, the Government published the first-year results from the tobacco strategy, showing that customs had met their key target of holding the illicit share of the UK market to 21 per cent, with 2.8 billion cigarettes seized in 2000-01.
One can, of course, never be complacent, but it is worth recording that customs have also achieved a 76 per cent reduction in the amount of revenue lost due to the cross-Channel smuggling of tobacco and alcohol, against a target of 10 per cent for 2001.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, can my noble friend the Minister confirm that there is now the strongest evidence that the tobacco companies themselves are at the heart of many worldwide smuggling scams? Did he see the report in The Times yesterday, in which two major American companies were accused of breaking US embargoes on trade with Iraq, by smuggling billions of cigarettes into that country?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, my noble friend will not draw me into making specific allegations in the House, but, no doubt, noble Lords will take account of the views that he expressed. My other point about smuggling is that there are countries in Europe with lower price and tax structures for tobacco products than this country in which smuggling is just as much a problem as it is here. The noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, put his finger on it when he talked about proportionality. The Joint Committee on Human Rights produced a most interesting report. My honourable friend, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Public Health, Yvette Cooper, has now responded to the committee and laid out in a letter and a report the reasons why the Government believe that the evidence is persuasive and why it was entirely right that, when the Government Bill was published, a Minister was able to say that he believed that the terms of the Bill were consistent with European legislation. The noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, also pointed out that the combination of the responsibility of the executive to provide the evidence, the legislature to weigh the evidence and the judiciary to ensure that judicial process is observed provides the kind of safeguards that are necessary in such a Bill. The noble Lord was persuasive about that. The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, thought that I had been somewhat selective in my reference to legislation produced using examples of sunset clauses. Sunset clauses, of their very nature, will be used only in special circumstances. I do not believe that the circumstances of the Tobacco Advertising and Promotion Bill warrant that use. The Bill as a whole is balanced and proportionate and contains sufficient safeguards which have been added to as a result of the 30 amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. Those amendments have been accepted. On that basis, the Government recommend that the House does not support the noble Earl, Lord Howe, in proposing a sunset provision.
3.45 p.m.
Lord Monson: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, does he agree that by all accounts there are more people in this country under the age of 40 who have smoked cannabis on more than one or two occasions
than there are people under the age of 40 who have smoked cigarettes? That is the case even though cannabis has never been advertised or promoted. How can the Minister be so certain of the link between advertising and tobacco consumption?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, the reports to which I referred in my introductory remarks have made it abundantly clear that there is a link. The Surgeon-General of the United States, Mr Clive Smee, tasked by the previous government to look into these matters, and various other reports have produced quite persuasive evidence that the implementation of this Bill will have a wholly positive impact on reducing tobacco consumption.
Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I believe that the Minister was entirely right to highlight the point made by my noble friend Lord Lester. The key questions for this Bill are whether its aims are legitimate and whether the means are proportionate. I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, had it right. He did a remarkable demolition job on the proposition for a sunset clause. I have no doubt that the Bill will be tested in court by the manufacturers in due course.
I am firmly of the belief that the provisions of the Bill are proportionate. All the way through our debates in Committee and the Report stage today, we have been describing how the Bill is proportionate. That has marked the foundation of our debates. I thought that the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Peston, on the position of the pharmaceutical industry in which he pointed out that it produces beneficial products that are subject to far tighter controls over advertising, was a case in point. It illustrates strongly that this Bill is indeed proportionate.
I shall not adduce the evidence again, but a great deal of evidence has been provided at each stage of the Bill and as we have discussed the various elements of the provisions. It was referred to at some length at Second Reading. It was referred to when the Government brought forward their Bill, when I brought the Bill forward in this House and, of course, in the other place with regard to the original Bill. That evidence was also provided to the Joint Committee on Human Rights.
Noble Lords in this House are only too expert in understanding the sources of the evidence. I am quite convinced that the evidence base is sufficiently robust for Parliament to legislate on this subject and for the Bill to be considered proportionate. The Smee report has been mentioned, along with the World Bank report, the review Curbing the Epidemic by Saffer and Chaloupka and so forth. In contrast, the only evidence brought forward by noble Lords who oppose the Bill have adduced is the KPMG report. No doubt noble Lords will be aware that the more that report is unpicked—not only its provenance, but its choice of countries and the way in which the evidence was presented—the more it is demonstrated that it was a deeply flawed piece of work and certainly should not be used to cast doubt on any of the evidence referred to today by the Minister.
Of course some noble Lords have made the case that advertising is a less important determinant of smoking than many other factors such as price, availability, social cachet and so forth. However, it may well be a strong component which, when combined with those other elements, has an effect. Indeed, it is the other side of the argument. It is perfectly possible to regard a ban on advertising as part of a total package, a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Jay. That is a further reason why a sunset clause would be inappropriate because the Bill forms part of a package and a strategy. No one has ever pretended that the Bill provides the only way to cut back on smoking or to prevent people from starting the habit.
Of course the short-term pressures are considerable in terms of pricing. If we had a sunset clause, there would be a great temptation for the manufacturers to drive down prices, which would perhaps lead to an increase in smoking.
A point was made about tobacco smuggling. Of course I would advocate that tobacco smuggling should be dealt with. It is a part of this package. It may be dealt with by a different government department, but I am sure that the Government will be vigorous in tackling the smuggling problem.
I cannot answer the question about the Electronic Communications Act. I am very touched by the faith of the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, in my ability to answer his question as to why there should be a sunset clause in that Act, but I still believe that sunset clauses are used only on matters of overriding public importance. The Acts mentioned by the noble Lord speak volumes in that respect, and we need to make that important point in this context.
I do not wish to prolong the matter any further. We have had a very good debate, in the course of which the arguments have been overwhelmingly in favour of those who do not see the merits of a sunset clause.
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