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Lord Campbell of Alloway: Well, not publicly, not on the Floor of the House. As I see it, this is a totally unwarranted and unwelcome aspersion cast upon conduct on the Floor of the House by a Member of the House. A complaint was made to a Clerk of the House of Commons, without any form of notice.
On 26th February, the Joint Committee met, absolved me of any want of propriety and asserted the freedom of any member of that committee to use the reports in either House. It was agreed that I should deal with the matter today.
I turn to the amendment. On 20th February, I received a most interesting letter from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, which could well dispose of the amendment—as it appears that in the international transport case the enforcement of penalties on conviction were stayed pending appeal. If that procedure were to be implemented generally, I totally accept that the amendment would be otiose. However, I thank the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, and their department for the courtesy and trouble that they took in writing to me. Perhaps for the sake of the record I may quote a section from the letter:
- "Thank you for your letter of the 21 January notifying me of your amendment for Report stage . . . I was very grateful to you for writing to me and I have looked at the Amendment very carefully. The view taken here is that the Amendment does not give any additional rights over and above those that exist at present. When a person appeals against conviction, the court to which he appeals already has the right to stay any penalty pending determination of the appeal. I therefore do not see why we need to make any special provision for people who may be convicted under the provisions of this Bill".
4.15 p.m.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, perhaps I may begin, as a fellow member of the Joint Select Committee on Human Rights, by mildly teasing the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway. I remember one evening, at about nine o'clock, I was trying to persuade this House—we may have been in Committee—that there should be a Human Rights Act, when the noble Lord got up after I had made a point and said that I was making a serious point after the dinner hour. He said it as though that were a high crime and misdemeanour. The exchange has now been quoted in books as an example of the sense of humour that we have among ourselves. I begin with that story because I am very concerned that we should keep a sense of humour.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, this is not a joke. It is a sting against my character, and I would be obliged if the noble Lord would not start by telling jokes.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, I do not mean to be offensive.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: You were.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, I apologise for having caused offence. I suggest that the matter indicates a misunderstanding. I think that that was the view taken in the Joint Select Committee when the matter was discussed and the noble Lord and I were both present.
My noble friend Lord Clement-Jones was concerned about the fact that, when our Committee met in December, it considered his Bill without his having any opportunity to make any representations. This is a Private Member's Bill, and he felt concerned about that. Therefore, on my advice, he decided that he would write to the committee. I was not responsible for the letter, but that is how it came about. He wanted to draw the committee's attention to the fact that he had had no opportunity to make representations.
I realise that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, construes my noble friend's letter as a complaint against him. I myself certainly do not construe it in that way, nor do I believe that it was so intended. What I am quite clear about is that the committee reaffirmed what is obvious anyway—that each member of that committee, and any Member of this House, is entirely free to make whatever use they intend of the public record contained in our reports. The noble Lord was entirely entitled to table his amendment on his interpretation of the report, and that is what he did. No criticism of any kind should be made of him for doing that, and the committee has made that perfectly clear. I do not know whether my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones will wish to add anything to what I have just said.
I move to the amendment itself, which I do not believe is necessary or a result of our Joint Select Committee report. In paragraph 19 of the report, we indicated what we thought about legal certainty. There is no point in my repeating that. The amendment, however, would write into the Bill a power in the High Court to stay the enforcement of a penalty when there had been a conviction on the ground that the offence was not proscribed by law. That is not a necessary power to write into the Bill, and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, more or less concedes that in the kind things that he said about the department.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I clearly conceded it. However, I have not yet received an acknowledgement or an apology for a sting and a slur on my character. I gather that the noble Lord did not draft it, but he advised on the letter. I think that this is an incredible way of dealing with a charge of misconduct on the Floor of the House. I protest.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, I think that I have said all that I can say on that matter. I finish on the amendment itself. It is not necessary because the court has an inherent power to stay proceedings. The
noble Lord referred to one example in which I acted as counsel in the lorry drivers' case. There was a stay in order to allow the Human Rights Convention points to be taken. The points in this amendment are all points that could be taken in the courts. If they were taken, the inherent jurisdiction of the court would ensure that there was a stay so that no one had to pay a penalty while the matter was being tested. If necessary the Court of Appeal would be asked to give a declaration of incompatibility—which is what would happen in this case, if the argument were correct—and there would be a stay pending an appeal to the Court of Appeal. The argument would be that this statute as a matter of law is outwith the European Human Rights Convention or European Community law and is incompatible. Therefore, one should either strike it down under Community law or declare incompatibility under the European Convention.If that were done under European Community law, there is no question that a stay would be granted. If it were done under European Convention law, the same would follow. The amendment is in my view not necessary and does not really follow or flow from the Joint Select Committee report. As I say, I do not think that the committee has taken the view that there is the slightest stain on the noble Lord's character, or any aspersion against him. However, that is a matter between the two noble Lords.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, the amendment has been well disposed of. As regards the letters, I have not seen copies of the correspondence but I am sure that all noble Lords will know that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, is a man of the highest integrity and that his contribution to this Bill has been wholly positive and welcome.
Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, this is a valuable opportunity for me to set the record straight. The noble Lord, Lord Lester, has dealt with the substance of the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, has indicated what he plans to do with regard to the amendment. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, if he considers that I have made a charge of misconduct against him. Certainly, that was not my intention in the letter to the Joint Select Committee. No discourtesy of any description was intended. It was not intended as a complaint about misconduct. I have no complaint about the noble Lord's conduct in Committee. Perhaps the wording of the letter was not as felicitous as it might have been. Perhaps I should have stated that I gained the impression, rather than that he gave the impression. That would have given a better flavour of my subjective interpretation of what he said in Committee.
It is important for the House to know the context of this matter. I was not given the benefit of any discussion with the Joint Select Committee. The report that was quoted—I heard about the report for the first time when the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, raised it in Committee—came as a complete surprise to me. I did, indeed, gain the impression that the noble
Lord was praying in aid the committee's report. However, that was clearly my problem rather than his. As has been explained, on the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, I wrote to the Joint Select Committee asking for clarification and whether or not the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, for Report stage was in line with the committee's views, as paragraph 19 of its report was clearly at odds with it, which somewhat baffled me.
The noble Lord, Lord Lester, could not advise me on the substance of the report as he had not been present through the deliberations of the committee on that particular occasion. Therefore, it was purely a matter of whether or not it was appropriate to write to the committee. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, if he felt that that comprised in a sense some personal allegation against him. If it had been, I certainly would have—
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