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Lord Fowler: I had not intended to intervene, but the Minister has made a number of statements that—although he tried to pretend otherwise—are distinctly challengeable. It is absurd to say that the police service will be fully resourced if we reach the level of 130,000 policemen. When the Minister bandies about words such as "record", he should think about what has occurred. Throughout the 1980s and early 1990s, police service strength increased by about 15,000 net. In the rest of the 1990s, and the period in which this Government have been in office, police service numbers have decreased. It is perfectly true that police numbers will eventually be greater than ever before, but that simply begs the question. The fact is that increases should have been made year by year.

We are under-policed in this country. On Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Condon, made that point very well. London cannot compare with New York. New York is adequately policed, which is why it has been able to adopt such successful policies. That point goes to the heart of this debate. We are talking about trying to make the police as effective as we

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conceivably can, but one of the reasons why the police are not as effective as possible is that they are under-resourced, as they have been for the past few years.

Lord Bradshaw: Noble Lords should remember that, on recruitment, a police constable is effectively 0.3 of a man because he has to undergo a great deal of training. Some 57 per cent of policemen in the Slough division are constables on probation. Although we can fill the establishment, we cannot fill it with effective policemen. Furthermore, we are going to "civilianise" between 200 and 300 posts in Thames Valley. We have had to pay for that from reserves by increasing our precepts by almost 14 per cent because the money available from central Government is not sufficient to increase police numbers to the required level. Moreover, the recruitment and particularly the retention of policemen in London are extremely difficult. Those are all reasons why the raw figures do not always tell the full story.

Lord Campbell of Alloway: I shall intervene only briefly. It seems to me, having listened to the debate so far, that the proposed power of direction is totally misconceived. In its proposed form, it pre-empts consultation; whereas, if it were reversed behind consultation, it could be a step towards retaining the reserved power. However, from the point of view of administration and good policing, the proposal seems provocative nonsense.

4.15 p.m.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: Those points were all helpful and underlined earlier points. I should like to return to the resource issue. I think that we could probably all agree, hand on heart, that there can never be sufficient resources for the police service. The question that I always ask is: what is the appropriate resource level? Perhaps when he was the shadow Home Secretary, the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, had in mind an optimum number for the Metropolitan Police. I do not know whether he did, but I certainly do not remember him going on the record with such a figure. Perhaps he had an optimum number in his head.

Our Government, however, have been firm and resolute in their commitment to ensuring that the police service has well-funded budgets. We have also started in the past few years to see a turnaround in the whole issue of recruitment and retention. The figures bear that out. In March 1997, there were 127,158 police officers. We anticipate that, in March 2002, there will be 128,000. We also project that, in March 2003, there will be a total of 130,000. Obviously, when we reach those figures, we shall have to continue examining whether they are the right ones. It will be for those in position on the day, working with their colleagues in the police service, to make those assessments.

The case is there to be made. We accept and have never hidden from the fact that resource issues are very important and that we must address them. It is also true that, in the timeframe that I have been talking about—the four years from March 1997 to September

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2001—3,000 extra support staff have been put in place to support the police in their important work. Moreover, according to my figures, budgets will grow from £7.7 billion in 2001 to £9.3 billion in 2003-04. That does not suggest a lack of commitment. It suggests to me that we should keep these issues continually under review to improve support and resource levels so that we can tackle the profound issues surrounding crime.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, was kind and helpful in his observations. We take the point that we shall have to reflect on how the power is exercised. However, we believe that it will be exercised where HMIC, the standards unit and perhaps the Audit Commission have found evidence of precise failure. As I said at the outset, we would expect to pursue the matter, in an iterative and helpful manner, in those circumstances.

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: Those comments have been repeated by Ministers so often now that the Government should perhaps table an amendment to this clause ensuring that, if the power survives at all, it can be exercised only in the circumstances he has just enunciated.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: The noble Lord accepts my case—that this would be appropriate action where there has been an identifiable failure—and I am grateful for that acceptance.

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: The Minister knows—I nearly used a Saxon word—very well that I believe that the whole clause is misconceived; we shall soon be dealing with that point. However, if the power must survive, the legislation should include the limitation that the Home Secretary cannot go off on a frolic of his or her own, but act only on receipt of an adverse report from the inspectorate. That would allay some fears.

Lord Elton: It should limit the Home Secretary to perceived failure and not expected failure. The Minister continues to say that the Secretary of State can act only when there is evident failure, but the Bill does not say that.

Lord Campbell of Alloway: The Minister says that he is dealing with a case. In effect, however, without meaning to do so, he is moving away from the essence of the argument. He really has to go back and consider the essence of the issue, and whether, in the form in which the proposal is made, there is a pre-emption of essential consultation. That is the essence of this argument.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: This whole debate is predicated—I thought that I had made this clear at the outset—on there being perceived failure, or the likelihood of failure which, if it existed, would fundamentally undermine the effectiveness and efficiency of a police force. I think we are all agreed that it is desirable to achieve effectiveness and efficiency. That has been a constant thread in

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legislation for much of the past 40 years. Obviously, we shall reflect on the point that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, made. We may well be able to improve the wording of the clause.

I am grateful that there appears to be acceptance, albeit not wholehearted, on the part of the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, that if we can further perfect the meaning of the clause to make it useful in its exercise, we shall be happy to do so. However, the measure is in essence a matter of last resort where there is proven failure on the part of whole or part of a police force. It seeks to enable such a police force to be sustained in an efficient and effective way. We take on board the sensible comments about the need constantly to review the resource in supporting the force and ensuring that it is properly provided for.

Lord Dixon-Smith: This has been—

Lord Condon: I thank the noble Lord for giving way. Before the noble Lord responds, I emphasise the anxiety that other Members of the Committee have mentioned in connection with the clause. I hear what the Minister says but, as drafted, the powers are not linked to unsatisfactory performance. Subsection (1) of new Section 41A states:

"in consequence of a report under section 54 or otherwise".

The word "otherwise" can be linked to future anticipated behaviour as opposed to faults that occurred in the past. That is then linked to fairly unfettered powers to set performance targets and so on. It may be a theoretical argument, but an argument can be constructed to the effect that without any fault having occurred the Home Secretary of the day may seek to impose performance targets for nakedly political reasons, perhaps in the run-up to a general election, to demand that clear-up rates in relation to a particular crime improve dramatically in an unreasonable period of time.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: I wish to ask the noble Lord a question to draw out the issue. Does he accept that the Secretary of State may in certain circumstances be right to act if there is anticipated failure that would have an adverse effect on the effectiveness and efficiency of a force? If the Secretary of State is obliged to wait until that failure has occurred, I suggest that he would be rightly criticised for failing to act earlier in anticipation of an evident failure in the efficiency and effectiveness of the force.

Lord Condon: I agree absolutely with the noble Lord on that issue. Such action in those circumstances would clearly be in the public interest. I believe that all that Members of the Committee are arguing for is that those circumstances should be stated on the face of the Bill.

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