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Lord Dixon-Smith had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 75:
- Page 74, line 22, leave out "the whole or any part of"
The noble Lord said: I do not intend to waste the time of the Committee on this group of amendments. They would apply to the schedules some of the proposals that we debated in Committee last week on the clauses. I do intend to move Amendment No. 75 or the other amendments in the group.
[Amendments Nos. 76 to 97 not moved.]
Lord Dixon-Smith had given notice of his intention to move Amendment No. 98:
- Page 75, line 27, leave out from "measures" to end of line 17 on page 76 and insert "for the purpose of restoring the efficiency and effectiveness of NCIS"
The noble Lord said: The amendment represents the drafting that I would prefer, but we have been round and round the subject without securing agreement on our proposals and I do not intend to move the amendment now. We shall wait to see what comes back at the next stage of the Bill.
[Amendments Nos. 99 to 132 not moved.]
[Amendment No. 133 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]
Clause 9 [The Independent Police Complaints Commission]:
[Amendment No. 134 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]
Viscount Bridgeman moved Amendment No. 135:
- Page 7, line 9, leave out paragraph (b) and insert—
The noble Viscount said: I shall speak also to Amendment No. 137. We have now moved on to Part 2. A police complaints commission appointed by the Government of the day hardly deserves the description "independent". To introduce a truly independent element, some of the appointments should be made by other bodies.
The Magistrates' Association represents those who have experience of the police and of people accused of crimes, who are likely to be a major source of complaints, as well as experience in sifting out the truth of conflicting claims. The Local Government Association represents the people elected by the public, who are served by the police. It also has the added advantage that it may sometimes be controlled by a different political party from that in government and can therefore provide an element of political balance to the appointment process.
Those bodies can be relied on to choose members who have relevant experience, while spreading the source of appointments and giving the commission a much better chance of developing the reputation for independence that it will need if it is to inspire confidence in its adjudications.
On Amendment No. 137, the Bill proposes giving some police powers to accredited persons—who will form such a feature of Part 4—but fails to bring them within the remit of the independent police complaints commission. That does not make much sense. The nature of the powers vested in the police makes an independent system necessary and desirable. All those who have such powers, including accredited persons, should be brought within the independent system. The argument against allowing the employer to deal with complaints is the same as that against allowing the police to police themselves. Once accredited persons are brought within the complaints system, they should also be kept away from membership so as to preserve the independence of the commission. I beg to move.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: I shall briefly support my noble friend on his amendments. I have tabled Amendment No. 136. I am astonished by its modesty. I simply suggested that not fewer than three members of the commission should have police experience.
I do not think that I would have thought the amendment necessary were it not for the fact that the next subsection states:
I accept that we want to have a completely independent chairman. However, I think that it is very important that a body of this importance should include people who possess some experience of police work and are able to ventilate the point of view of the police generally on these matters.
I hope very much that, in considering this matter, the Government will reflect on the degree of mistrust about their current proposals. Many policemen of all ranks believe that the Government are taking too much into their own hands, and that they do not pay sufficient regard to the need to have the confidence of the police. The Government will not enjoy the police's confidence unless the police are satisfied that the arrangements for handling complaints against them are fair and in no way biased against them. I hope that the Minister will give serious consideration to that view.
Lord Borrie: I rise to express some support for the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Peyton of Yeovil. It is very reasonable that, of the commission's 10 members, three should have had experience of police service. I am currently involved with two unrelated self-regulated industries: the accountancy profession and the world of advertising. Although they have ensured that a majority of those serving on the governing councils of their self-regulatory bodies are independent, they have also ensured that a specific number—a minority, admittedly—should have experience of the world of advertising or of the accountancy profession. I therefore have much sympathy for the views expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Peyton.
Conversely, I feel that no support whatever should be given to Amendment No. 135, proposed by the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman. He started his remarks by asking how the independent police complaints commission can be independent if it is appointed by the Government. Over the years, numerous bodies, including the current Police Complaints Authority, have been able to establish with the public—and, I should hope, with Members of this House—a reputation for independence despite the fact that they are appointed by the Government. In such cases, the Government seek to make a point of ensuring that the members are independent.
Moreover, to safeguard that independence, the Government seek to provide some security of tenure. The office concerned with public appointments is always concerned with ensuring, among other things, that appointments entail some years of security so that members appointed by the Government or a particular department shall indeed be independent and able to perform their tasks fully and adequately.
I oppose Amendment No. 135 for that particular reason. However, I also oppose the particular notion which it expresses that responsibility for appointing half the commission members should be handed over to one voluntary association—the eminent and reasonable people at the Magistrates' Association—and that responsibility for the other half should be handed over to another voluntary association, the Local Government Association. There has been great disagreement across the Floor of the Committee about the degree to which the Home Secretary should have responsibility in these matters, but surely we can agree that the Government should not abnegate and hand over to someone else responsibility for the appointment of the chairman and commissioners of the independent police complaints commission.
Lord Condon: On Second Reading, I made what may have seemed the extravagant claim that getting the independent police complaints commission right was one of the Bill's most important objectives. I still believe passionately that we must get this provision absolutely right.
I find myself, paradoxically as a former police officer, almost arguing against the amendments. Many years ago, I was persuaded—as the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Police Superintendents' Association and the Police Federation have more recently been persuaded—that a proper complaints process is vital to public confidence in policing. A lack of confidence in that process would be the greatest mischief and must be avoided. I am not taking anything away from the good and worthy people who have spent many years in the current complaints arrangements and done their very best to make those arrangements work, but it is still a fact of life that very many people do not have confidence in the police complaints process. In particular, and more disturbingly, many people from ethnic minority communities do not have confidence in the police complaints procedures.
It is vital that we get it right. Anything that waters down the sense of newness and change and the greater emphasis on independence needs to be thought about very seriously. I would only rarely argue with the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, on these issues, because I respect his motivation in raising them. However, in respect of the other two amendments, we should be very careful not to water down the important and symbolic statement about the independence of the new provisions.
Lord Bradshaw: Like the noble Lord, Lord Condon, we stress the need to ensure independence for the complaints authority. Although it is superficially attractive, I am not sure that Amendment No. 135 provides the independence that we want. I can see what the amendment seeks to do, but I do not think that it does it.
We do, however, welcome the provision in Amendment No. 137. We think that it is a sensible amendment and we support it. As a member of a
I therefore support Amendment No. 137. I am not sure that Amendments Nos. 135 and 136 add to the independence of the authority.
"(b) not less than five members appointed by the Magistrates Association; and
(c) not less than five members appointed by the Local Government Association."
"A person shall not be appointed as the chairman of the Commission, or as another member of the Commission, if—
(a) he holds or has held office as a constable in any part of the United Kingdom".
6.45 p.m.
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