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Viscount Bridgeman moved Amendment No. 177:
- Page 23, line 38, leave out "may" and insert "shall"
The noble Viscount said: I am aware that the Minister has referred to the Secretary of State's discretion in his remarks on Amendment No. 167, but this amendment refers to the commission's work itself.
The commission's work will form an important part of a properly functioning police service. People who complain about the police or police officers who are complained against must be able to feel that they have some remedy if there is a miscarriage of justice. Thus there needs to be a comparable complaints system in respect of commission staff. I should be grateful for the Minister's comments as regards whether this should be left to the discretion of the Home Secretary. I beg to move.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I rather suspect that the noble Viscount will be quite pleased with what I am about to say; I hope so. Amendment No. 177 seeks to place an obligation on the Home Secretary to make regulations providing for a complaints system for IPCC staff. I can announce to the Committee that we have every intention of making those regulations. For that reason, I am happy to advise the Committee that we shall accept the amendment. The noble Viscount, with his eloquence at this late hour, has achieved a direct hit.
I do not imagine the noble Viscount was being remiss in not moving his other two amendments in the grouping, but I must assume that he had intended to do so. However, I have to say that I cannot be so accommodating in respect of Amendments Nos. 178 and 179.
Amendment No. 178 is not appropriate as the regulations will either set out the process as a whole or apply the provisions on complaints against police officers for IPCC staff with or without modification or
a mixture of both—I hope that that makes sense. It would be inappropriate to tie the Home Secretary's hands over the way in which the regulations are to be drafted.Amendment No. 179 probably arises from a grammatical misunderstanding. The regulations will not "apply to" the provisions made by or under Part 2. However, they may "apply" any provision made by or under Part 2 to complaints against commission staff. I suspect that that will clarify any misunderstanding over the drafting.
It is a case of two to one on this grouping. I offer my congratulations to the noble Viscount.
Viscount Bridgeman: I was quite right not to push my luck and I am grateful to the Committee for overlooking the fact that I did not move the other two amendments in the grouping. I am most grateful to the Minister.
Lord Elton: Will the Minister use this opportunity to illuminate the situation in regard to the words,
- "(including provisions modifying this Part)"?
I may not have followed what he said, but it appears to me that the Secretary of State has here a kind of internalised Henry VIII power to alter the provisions we have just agreed to. I notice that the clause is listed in the report of the Select Committee for the scrutiny of delegated powers as having had a suitable level of parliamentary scrutiny, but I cannot see in the clause where that scrutiny is. Can the Minister tell me what form the order will take? Will it be a negative or affirmative order, or what? If he would rather tell me that in time for the Report stage, at this late hour I am perfectly content for him to do so.
10.15 p.m.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: If the noble Lord is happy for us to check and think about that, we shall make sure that he and other noble Lords involved in the debate know about our decision before Report stage.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 178 and 179 not moved.]
Clause 25, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 26 [Transitional arrangements connected with establishing the Commission etc]:
Viscount Bridgeman moved Amendment No. 180:
- Page 24, line 10, after "Part," insert "after consultation with the Police Complaints Authority and, if appropriate, the Commission,"
The noble Viscount said: In moving the amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 181 and 182. Clause 26 is oddly worded in that it seems to give the Home Secretary the power to order the transfer of property from anyone at all. It is presumably intended to allow the transfer of property from the existing Police Complaints Authority—or, possibly, a police authority—to the commission. I should be grateful if the Minister could clarify this point. I beg to move.
Lord Renton: I hope that my noble friend Lord Bridgeman will forgive me. I had rather hoped that he
would not move Amendment No. 180. As he has, I must express some doubt about its value. I do not think that we need to elaborate the rather complex procedures that will follow with a further requirement that the Police Complaints Authority, and, if appropriate, the commission, should be consulted. I do not see the need for that. However, I agree with him that we should leave out,
- "including provision modifying this part".
Lord Elton: With some apology I should tell the Minister that he will find my query much easier to understand if he realises that I was addressing it to this group of amendments and not to the previous group. I apologise.
Lord Rooker: I am grateful to the noble Lord. I hope that what I am about to say will help him. The effect of Amendment No. 180 would be to place an obligation on the Home Secretary to consult the Police Complaints Authority, and, if appropriate, the independent police complaints commission, on any commencement order bringing the provisions of this part into force.
It is quite unnecessary for such an obligation to be placed on the Home Secretary in regard to this power. The power is limited to making transitional provisions and savings. It is likely that the Home Secretary would consult the Police Complaints Authority and, if appropriate, the new police complaints commission, in any case.
Amendment No. 181 seeks to remove from the Home Secretary the power to modify this part in making these transitional provisions. However, such a
power is standard and should be retained. It is limited to transitional arrangements and may well be helpful in facilitating the process of bringing the provisions in this part of the Bill into force. The Delegated Powers Committee had no objection to the Home Secretary being granted this power.Amendment No. 182 is also not appropriate. It may be necessary for some property, rights or liabilities to be transferred to the independent police complaints commission. The provision as it stands achieves this. The power can be used only in connection with the establishment of the independent police complaints commission. It would not be appropriate—nor is it intended—to transfer property from police authorities to the new independent police complaints commission.
Viscount Bridgeman: I am grateful to the Minister for his reply to this amendment and to Amendment No. 181. I note what he says about Amendment No. 182. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 181 and 182 not moved.]
[Amendment No. 183 not moved.]
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I beg to move that the House do now resume.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
- House adjourned at twenty-two minutes past ten o'clock.
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