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Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, can the Minister give any reason to the House why these would-be illegal immigrants are so keen to come to the United Kingdom, rather than staying in France or in the rest of the European Union?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, the noble Lord should listen to the Question.
Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: My Lords, while noting that there has been a decline in the number of people seeking asylum in the United Kingdom, can the Minister say what progress is being made in discussions with the rest of our partners in the
European Union so that applications for asylum can be processed in the first safe country at which applicants arrive?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, discussions are going on at the moment with our partners to try and reform the Dublin convention to try and make that very process occur.
Lord Hylton: My Lords, can the noble and learned Lord reassure us that a complete freight service has been resumed? The absence of one has caused very large economic losses. Does he also agree that this is not just a matter of security but of assessing who is and who is not an asylum seeker or refugee? That would best be done in France.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, this is about safety on trains first; safety both for the people on the trains and the people who are illegally trying to get on them. It is a very important safety issue. There is also the separate issue of where is the best place to assess the asylum claims. Of course we would say that it is not by coming into Britain illegally.
As to the question about whether full services have been resumed, I think that the answer is that they have not yet been fully resumed. Perhaps I may write to the noble Lord and confirm that.
Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, I previously asked the noble and learned Lord whether halting the trains at Fréthun is the right policy and whether they should run through Fréthun from further back in France, which I know involves some expenditure. But the Government are facing that expenditure in making up to Eurotunnel the minimum user charge. So they are paying in either case. The cost can be met. The Eurotunnel passenger trains run from Paris and Brussels and do not have to stop at the border.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, we believe that the key to the resolution of the problem is for SNCF and for the French authorities to put in place adequate physical security and policing resources at Fréthun, so that there can be a restoration of the full rail freight service without disruption. That is the solution that we are pressing for.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, in supporting the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, is not the main problem the fact that the Red Cross centre is within walking distance of the Fréthun terminal? When the would-be immigrants get to the fences some get over and get on the trains. Others, who are turned back by the police and are escorted back to the Red Cross centre, try again another night. Is not the real answer to persuade the French Government to close that centre?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, as I have indicated, discussions are going on with the French. We are proposing solutions that in effect provide adequate security so that the full freight service from Fréthun can be resumed.
Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord may not quite have understood my question, which was different from the Question posed by my noble friend Lord Campbell of Croy. My question was: what is it that makes illegal immigrants want to come to this country, rather than stay in France? What is different about this country?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: No, my Lords, I fully understood the noble Lord's question.
Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I understand that the volume of freight being carried through the tunnel has been reduced to only 50 per cent of what it was before the trouble started. Can the Minister offer us any comfort by telling us, apart from the security measures that he mentioned, what other satisfactory measures can be taken to ensure that freight and the full economic viability of the tunnel return?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, as I said, we will not achieve full resumption of the freight service until the security measures are available at Fréthun. That in turn depends on co-operation on the French side from SNCF and the French security services, so that adequate security is provided. Only once there is adequate security there can the full freight service be resumed from Fréthun.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, can the noble and learned Lord tell us how many people have lost their lives in and around the entrance to the tunnel?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I cannot say what is the total number, but there have been two fatalities during the course of this year alone.
Lord Tebbit: My Lords, is the noble and learned Lord aware that, fond as we all are of him and much as, at times, we admire his style if not the content of his answers, he has gone a little too far today in refusing to answer in any seriousness the question put to him twice by my noble friend Lord Pearson? Does he agree that the House deserves something more than a flippant reply of the kind that he gave?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I did not intend in any way to be disrespectful to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson. His question is one that we could all speculate on; it is not a question of particular fact that would be appropriate for me to answer.
BBC Standards
2.52 p.m.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil asked Her Majesty's Government:
- Whether they will consider changes to the BBC charter when it next falls due for renewal so as to require a high standard of programming, particularly in television.
The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Blackstone): My Lords, under the terms of its current charter and agreement, the BBC is required to maintain high general standards in all respects, and in particular in respect of the content, quality and editorial integrity of its programmes. It is for BBC governors to satisfy themselves that the requirements are fulfilled.
The charter expires in 2006 and the process of review will begin during 2004. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport will announce the terms of the review in due course.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords, I am reasonably grateful for that Answer. Does the noble Baroness share the idea that the BBC, in its recent television programmes, has tended to prefer the easy popularity that is to be found downmarket to quality and has tended to put its market share in front of excellence? That makes me wonder whether the time is coming when the BBC's privileged access to funding should be terminated.
Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord agrees that it would be wrong for Ministers to interfere in deciding what is and what is not high quality. As I said in my initial Answer, that is for the governors of the BBC. If the noble Lord is asking me personally, I think that there is currently a good mix of programmes on the BBC. There are popular programmes that the noble Lord may not like but that many other people do; there are also many very high-quality programmes. I am thinking, for example, of "The Blue Planet", which has won several prizes and attracted a huge number of viewers. I am not sure that there is great cause for concern, but, as I said, that would be a matter for the BBC governors.
Lord McNally: My Lords, while the BBC could be improved—it certainly could—does the Minister agree that it is still a massive national asset to have a public service broadcaster of such quality? Is she at all afraid that during a three-year period in which we shall be examining the regulatory system and structure of the commercial sector as well as that of the BBC, the BBC will be open to sniping by commercial vested interests on the basis of short-term interests of shareholders rather than the broader national interest, which is why we have the BBC as a public service broadcaster?
Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord that the BBC is something for
which Britain is well known. People around the world respect the United Kingdom because of the quality of what the BBC broadcasts, not just to the United Kingdom but around the world. I have no doubt that during a period of change for broadcasting there will be plenty of sniping from all sides, but I am sure that the BBC will be well able to defend itself by citing many examples of high-quality programmes.
Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, are the Government aware that people at large are not themselves unaware that the Government always consider themselves able and in recent times willing to pass their opinion on practically anything? Is there any reason why the Government cannot form a view and communicate it to the governors of the BBC? I should not wish to put myself forward as an arbiter of taste, but I fancy that I am not alone in sensing a sharp deterioration in quality at the BBC during the past six months or so.
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