| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Baroness Darcy de Knayth: I should like to express my support for the noble Lord's amendment, and speak also to Amendment No. 9, which is tabled in my name. The noble Lord's amendment deals with "qualifying bodies" and would implement the requirements of the EU directive. It is quite wrong that disabled students should be denied the choice of studying in order to pursue a profession that they could perfectly well practise if they could get over the hurdle erected by some professional bodies. Discrimination would be justifiable only if it were a question of maintaining professional or trade standards.
Amendment No. 9 is, I fear, of similar length and wording to the noble Lord's amendment. I wish only that my speech could be as short as the noble Lord's introduction. However, not having his ability to paraphrase and to do wonderful things with words, I am afraid that the Committee may have to put up with a little more by way of delivery. My amendment seeks to ensure that disabled students will be protected against discrimination by employers while on various forms of work placement and work training programmes, and that they enjoy equal opportunities with their non-disabled peers. The EU directive covers access to all types and all levels of vocational guidance training and retraining, including practical work experience.
My amendment would ensure that, in addition to schools and FE and HE institutions having duties not to discriminate against disabled learners in arranging work placements, the employers would also be obliged not to discriminate against the person concerned and to make reasonable adjustments. Comparable provisions exist in the Race Relations and Sex Discrimination Acts. No such obligation with regard to people with disabilities exists at present. Indeed, employers can even refuse them a placement.
I moved a similar amendment with the same aim, though it was much shorter, during the proceedings on the Special Educational Needs and Disability Act but
it was resisted by the Government. Work experience is becoming increasingly important not only in further and higher education but also in secondary education. Further, the actual experience of work is particularly important to the student with a disability—indeed, probably more so than with the ordinary able-bodied student—because he can then judge whether he is capable of pursuing the career that he has in mind, and work out how to do things and find ways around his problems.I am pleased to note that the Disability Rights Commission is in favour of the amendment. Indeed, on 4th February, the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, wrote to me following Second Reading saying that, as she mentioned in the debate,
- "the Government will be considering the next steps in legislating to amend the DDA in the light of the outcome of the Article 13 Directive which is currently underway. This includes changes that might be needed in relation to practical work experience".
I understand the reluctance some people feel about imposing a duty on employers which may be expensive and may be for a short time if the accommodation is specific to the individual. If we are to make it work, work placements and work-based training will have to be backed up by funding to ensure that the employers get a fair deal.
As part of the new 14-19 reforms, additional resources are being made available, including £25 million in 2002-03 for the development of education/business links, including opportunities for work experience, and increased levels of investment are promised in future years. But as yet there is no consistent funding stream of support for disabled pupils and students while they are undertaking work experience and work-based learning. In the case of disabled pupils in schools, they would not be funded by the LSC, nor would any support specified in their statement of SEN necessarily carry over into a work placement.
Will the disabled students' allowance be increased to cover the cost of some kinds of reasonable adjustments to the workplace, or could employers be reimbursed by an extension to the access to work programme? It would have to be ring-fenced to ensure that it followed the student on the work placement. It would be illogical for the funding plans not to include funding for employers to make reasonable adjustments to allow disabled pupils and students to benefit fully from work experience and work-based training.
I wonder whether I can entice the Minister into commenting briefly on the question of funding. That may be unfair as I have not warned her. However, if we are able to give encouragement to employers, that would be useful. I look forward to hearing whether the noble Lord, Lord Ashley, feels that he can accept the amendment.
Lord Swinfen: Amendment No. 9 also appears in my name. I do not propose to say a great deal on it because all that needs to be said has probably been said already. However, there is the question of reasonable adjustment. A number of people will say that for
disabled people who are volunteers or on work placements the cost would be far too great and therefore would be unreasonable. However, we must not forget that the length of time that the individual will be in post will be taken into account when deciding whether or not any adjustments are reasonable. Therefore, I am sure that unreasonably expensive adjustments for short use will not be permissible.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Perhaps I may be of assistance to the Committee. Clearly, there is a question of who counts as an employee in those circumstances. Where someone is an employee, the employer has a responsibility under the DDA, given reasonable expense, to make physical adjustments. With a placement scheme, factors such as whether a person comes from a school or a voluntary organisation, and the length of the placement, constitute a grey area. I have taken advice on the matter. However, where Members of the Committee seek information on this matter and on other matters which have arisen during tonight's debate as to the current state of the law and its application, perhaps I may write to them. I shall ensure that my noble friend has copies of all the correspondence. That may be helpful. It would not be easy to give a "yes" or "no" answer to the noble Baroness on this question. At what point the employer is required to make reasonable adjustments, and if so who pays, would depend on the circumstances.
Baroness Darcy de Knayth: I thank the Minister for that reply, which is helpful. As she mentioned that she would have to implement the directive, I threw out the thought as to how we would give a sweetener to the employers.
Lord Ashley of Stoke: The response by the Minister was helpful. I welcome the fact that in tabling Amendment No. 8 the noble Lord, Lord Addington, seeks to bring qualifying bodies within the orbit of Part II of the DDA. The amendment would implement a recommendation of the task force and would bring our policy into line with the EU employment directive. I understand that it has largely been accepted by the Government.
The amendment is important because it would substantially enhance the employment opportunities of disabled students. Qualifying bodies are gateways to entry for a large number of professions, occupations or trades. It cannot be right that sex and race legislation covers these bodies yet the DDA does not; and in consequence it would be perfectly lawful for them to discriminate against disabled students. I accept the amendment.
Regarding Amendment No. 9, put forward so clearly by the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, I am sure that the Committee will recognise that when people become disabled at an early age, they face greater difficulties than those disabled later in life when they have had valuable experience and perhaps training.
At one time it was virtually impossible for young disabled people to obtain training. Although it is a little better today, many gaps remain. The amendment closes an important one. As the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, has pointed out, work placements and work-based training is an essential part of the qualification needed for many jobs. If it is missing, it is like a ladder with some steps knocked out. Schools and higher education institutions already have non-discrimination duties, but until employers offering training programmes have similar duties, the whole process resembles a faulty and hence a useless ladder.
It has already been said that the EU Directive on Equal Treatment in Employment requires the UK by 2006 to implement provisions similar to that proposed by this amendment. But why should we wait until then? Why not move now? If the Bill is accepted, that means early movement. I am happy to accept the amendment.
Lord Addington: I thank the noble Baroness for supporting my amendment, if only very briefly. I apologise for not supporting her amendment. The issue has a long history. I know that the noble Baroness has battered away at the problem for a long time. She has spotted a hole in the problem which is as important in practical terms as the one that I have brought forward. There is no point in getting through a course and passing a professional body's exam in order to become whatever it is, if one is then denied the essential practical experience. So they are two branches certainly of the same tree.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Darcy de Knayth moved Amendment No. 9:
- After Clause 5, insert the following new clause—
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |