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Lord Whitty: My Lords, biofuels—both in the sense of potential in liquid biofuels and in biomass for energy production—are certainly alternative fuel technologies that we need to develop as a contribution towards meeting the renewables target. It is also part of the synergy of the new department—which the noble Baroness indicated had not gone as far as it should. I dispute that. We have made great progress. It is in terms of a synergy between the agricultural dimension of the department and the environment dimension that we could develop alternative crops which could be profitable for the agricultural sector and help in meeting our renewables targets. That, if nothing else, is a justification for DEFRA.
Lord Judd: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, although he suggests that it is not essential to have the United States on board, it is nevertheless highly regrettable if it is not? Does he accept, therefore, that the Government will receive all possible support in the robust stand they seem to be taking with our United States friends? Does he further agree that, in taking such a stand, the time has come to make the argument very toughly that failure to get to grips internationally with this issue will result in more economic disruption and more human suffering than is ever likely to result from terrorism?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, that is profoundly true. It is part of the tone of what we are trying to convey at all levels to our United States friends in an attempt to persuade them off the course of abandoning the Kyoto Protocol and to re-engage with it. I said that we could manage to deliver the terms of the protocol without the United States. But that would be in a narrow legal sense. Clearly, when we are talking about a country which contributes over a quarter of all emissions, the absence of that country from the process is an important problem in terms of delivering it.
There are some matters which President Bush is prepared to put into place to slow down the growth of emissions. But his predecessors, in 1990—indeed, the government led by his father—committed themselves to a 7 per cent reduction. Our calculations at present are that, as was indicated in the Statement, there will be a 25 per cent growth of emissions despite President Bush's package. That will make the delivery of the Kyoto targets very difficult to achieve. We and our allies and other friends of America need to try to persuade it to change course.
The Earl of Mar and Kellie: My Lords, the Minister will be aware that Scotland has an excess in terms of its capacity to generate electricity. He may also be aware that I believe that that is excellent. I want to ask the Minister about hydro-generation, which currently represents 10 per cent of Scottish electricity
generation. Do the Government plan to expand this well-proven technology, especially as it is acceptable within the landscape? The Minister will no doubt be aware that Scotland's neighbours in Norway have sufficient hydro-capacity to be self-sufficient should there be a bad, rainy summer. It is an excellent feature—bad weather can equal sufficiency in energy.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, in the improbable event of a summer of heavy rain in Scotland, I have no doubt that the hydro facilities that it has, and other potential projects, could make a significant contribution. Hydro-electricity is not, strictly speaking, as effective in terms of renewables and carbon minimisation as some other areas. Nevertheless, we recognise the capacity of Scotland to create energy from its natural resources. Along with many other areas, Scotland will no doubt be making a major contribution to saving the world from climate change. Its natural advantages need to be developed. In that sense the Government will certainly support hydro-technology.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe: My Lords, I welcome the ratification of the Kyoto Protocol and the actions that the Government are taking. I note the Minister's response to the question about the nuclear industry. However, does he agree that the amount of CO2 emissions currently saved by the nuclear power that we generate is helping towards meeting those targets? In particular, looking to the longer term, does the Minister agree that we shall need to take decisions soon on whether we can maintain the current figure of 20 per cent of electricity that is generated by nuclear power in this country if we are to try to make progress on limiting CO2 emissions? Does he also agree that the previous government and the present Government have failed to deal with the major issue at the heart of public concern about the nuclear industry, which relates to the safe disposal of nuclear waste? I know that my noble friend the Minister has previously expressed concern about that. What is his department doing about the problem and when can we expect some decisions to be taken about the safe disposal of nuclear waste?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I recognise the concern in your Lordships' House about nuclear waste, which reflects the public concern. My noble friend will know that we have now engaged in a consultation process on the options for disposal of nuclear waste over the long term. Clearly, whatever level of nuclear capacity we have over the longer term—and there are decisions that will have to be made on that—the amount of nuclear waste that has already been generated, together with that which will be generated by power stations that will be operational for a number of years yet, is sufficient for us to need a strategy for its long-term disposal. We are addressing that now.
My only point about nuclear capacity, as I said earlier, is that we do not have to take a decision on it in order to meet the Kyoto targets. However, that does
not mean that we can wait until beyond 2012 before we take the serious decisions on our future mix of energy sources.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, under the Kyoto agreement, the Republic of Ireland was afforded a marked increase in relevant emissions, in contrast with the reductions required in the United Kingdom. A significant consequence of that has been a substantial differential in excise duties on road fuel between the Republic and Northern Ireland, with an ancillary consequence of massive smuggling between the two. I do not dissent in any way from the Kyoto principles, but I should like to know whether the Government have advanced any new resolution to that problem, which leads to massive disrespect for the rule of law in the Province, to the despair of honest traders, quite apart from misgivings as to where the proceeds of smuggling might be going.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I am not sure that that serious problem of differential fuel taxing and the resultant smuggling or legal crossing of the border to fill up with petrol can be ascribed directly to the Kyoto Protocol. The Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom take separate decisions on their mix of taxes. Our argument is that other fiscal measures will be needed in the Republic of Ireland and in other EU states to ensure that they meet their Kyoto targets and contribute to their given figures within the EU bubble. Ireland may be allowed some increase, but it needs to ensure that it keeps within the requirements of the EU bubble, which may mean that some additional taxation is needed. It is for the Government of the Republic of Ireland to decide on that mix of taxation. The difference in relative taxes has caused some serious disturbance in Northern Ireland, but that is a consequence of us all maintaining separate sovereignty over taxes. I know that some of the noble Lord's friends would not wish to upset that position in the European Community.
The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, if I recollect correctly, the House recently passed a statutory instrument devolving the setting of targets for renewable energy to the Scottish Parliament. Do the targets that the Minister is talking about today relate only to England and Wales, or are they targets for the whole of the UK?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the targets relating to our international obligations are for the whole of the UK. The devolved administrations are all party to the UK programme for dealing with climate change. There are separate chapters of the climate change programme relating to the contributions of the devolved administrations. In some cases, the way in which they are meeting their targets is different, because of devolution.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, if no one else wants to speak from the Back Benches, I believe that I am entitled to ask a follow-up question, in view of the time
available. I should like to press the Minister on the subject raised by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. We all hope that we shall be able to get some fuel from our crops. The Minister and I share that hope. However, it is difficult to ensure that bio-generating power stations are placed near to where the crops will be grown. He will remember that one recent application in Wiltshire was turned down. One of the problems that we shall face if we are not careful is that we may grow crops in one part of the country and then waste huge amounts of energy and money on transporting them to the other end of the country. Planning for fuel generating plants is hugely important.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I am familiar with the case that the noble Baroness refers to. She raised the general issue of planning consents earlier. This is an important issue. The Curry commission on agriculture made great play of the importance of energy crops. A market for those crops is needed, which requires appropriate investment. The PIU report's comments on planning consents will have to be taken up in our review of planning and will be part of our response to the PIU energy review.
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