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Lord Dixon-Smith: I am grateful to the Minister for that helpful reply. The answer to his question is essentially, "Yes". Nevertheless, I still ask him to
consider the need to include such provision in the Bill. While the annual policing plan is an entirely appropriate vehicle for consultation, there is nothing that says that it must be done that way or that a chief constable could not start the process without consultation. We are again dealing with this wretched business of possibilities. If the Minister will think about what I have said, I shall happily think about what he has said. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 185 not moved.]
4.30 p.m.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester moved Amendment No. 185A:
- Page 31, line 34, after force insert ", including the British Transport Police,"
The noble Lord said: I have tabled this amendment as it appears that the Bill as drafted does not give the British Transport Police the power to accredit community support officers. A wide range of functions is proposed for CSOs and there is scarcely one which does not apply to the railway environment. Tasks such as helping to combat graffiti and vandalism, providing a visible authority presence at particular "hot-spot" stations in times of increased alert and general reassurance to reduce fear of crime at stations are all obvious areas for co-operation between CSOs and the British Transport Police.
Currently, BTP are working on safety issues of exactly that kind with rail staff in two distinct ways. The first is at Railtrack's 15 major stations. These account for approximately 15 per cent of all crime reported to BTP. Security guards are employed on those station concourses. However, until recently, those guards did nothing more than call for BTP help whenever they were faced with a problem. Therefore, they did not provide a great deal of assistance in tackling the problems they were hired to resolve. Happily, however, Railtrack realised this and talked to BTP about providing training for those security guards. As a result Railtrack now has people who are better equipped to deal appropriately with difficult situations. The next stage will be the development of a briefing process to encourage security staff to be deployed in ways that are most likely to reduce crime.
There is no doubt that the public would benefit from there being better trained, more accountable security guards at stations. Yet, as things stand in the Bill, staff at major stations in London would have to be accredited by the Metropolitan Police under the control and direction of the commissioner, wear uniforms identical to other Met CSOs, but operate in areas which are under BTP jurisdiction, whereas the CSOs themselves would not be under that jurisdiction. I suggest to my noble friend that that would not work. It would be impossible if BTP officers were unable to direct security guards on stations. If chief constables are not to be allowed to accredit staff in another chief constable's area, as the Bill states, they should be unable to do so in the area of the BTP chief constable.
The same applies to an even greater extent with on-board train staff. BTP was recently asked by a train operating company, South West Trains, to work with its people on its services and to train them. The company plans to invest up to £1.8 million on the initiative. If BTP were not allowed to accredit the staff they have trained, train operating companies would have to approach a Home Office force for accreditation of their staff. But as a chief police officer can accredit only in his own police area, the particular train operator I have mentioned would need to seek accreditation from the Met and from Surrey, Hampshire, Sussex, Devon and Cornwall forces. That situation is clearly unworkable. I respectfully suggest to my noble friend that there is a strong case for amending the Bill in the modest way that I have suggested to ensure that BTP are given the authority to accredit CSOs. I beg to move.
Lord Bradshaw: I support the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester. BTP are a special case. I believe all of us consider that railway premises are underpoliced. Graffiti is in evidence everywhere. There are all kinds of opportunities to cause damage on the railways, which go largely unchecked. However, I ask the Minister to ensure that anything that is done for Specials in this regard—which I hope will be done—should apply also to the British Transport Police as they need to employ Specials. The amendment would allow BTP to take responsibility for certain railway staff, from whom I hope they will be able to recruit personnel, as well as employing Specials.
Lord Hylton: There are two forms of highly anti-social behaviour which in my experience frequently cause delay to trains. The first is the dropping of sometimes heavy objects off bridges either on to the rail track or on to passing trains. The second is trespassing on the line. Can the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, or the Minister tell the Committee that those forms of activity, which are much to be deplored, are already covered by the existing powers of British Transport Police? If they are, can they be dealt with more effectively? If they are not, what should be done?
Lord Renton: I am not opposed to the amendment; I rather tend to favour it. However, an earlier clause refers to various other police bodies. It seems to me that to single out the transport police is unfortunate. Clause 3 refers to the National Criminal Intelligence Service and the National Crime Squad. New Section (3A) on page 3 refers to the Northern Ireland Police Service and the National Criminal Intelligence Service. One wonders why they should not be treated in the same way as the transport police.
Lord Elton: While we are on the point, and to give the Minister time to think, will he tell us where the Royal Parks Police figure in all this?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: I shall deal with the final point first. That police force does not figure here. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Renton, that the issue he raised will de dealt with in later amendments.
I have some sympathy with the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, and with his argument that the changes set out in Clause 33 would also be appropriate for the British Transport Police. I know that that view is shared by the force, which sees great potential in community support officers patrolling railway stations, for example, in support of the police. However, having made those nice comments, the Government do not think that this Bill is the right vehicle for such a change. The British Transport Police do not have a police authority and so, at the moment, could not be brought within the scope of Clause 33. Also, as many of the powers in Schedule 4 are not available to BTP constables it would not therefore be appropriate to confer them on BTP civilian staff.
However, I can tell the noble Lord that the Government want to include the British Transport Police, where appropriate, within the scope of the police reform package as a whole. I shall undertake to take up this issue with colleagues in the Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions, who are actively considering bringing forward their own legislation dealing with the British Transport Police more generally. Waiting for another Bill also has the advantage of seeing how this new policy operates across the 43 Home Office forces before extending it more widely.
We need to spend more time thinking through some of the issues which the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, raised concerning the territoriality of the police service. Discussions with colleagues in the DTLR will be important in that regard. The noble Lord made some good, helpful points. Some issues will need to be resolved. We consider that they can be usefully resolved in further discussion with our colleagues. Some of the issues could be teased out. It would be more appropriate to deal with this important matter in separate legislation dealing more exclusively with the British Transport Police.
I should try to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, if I can. We confirm that the offences of trespassing on railway property and throwing stones, rocks, boulders or whatever to impede the progress of trains are enforceable by the BTP—they involve, after all, criminal offences—and through issuing fixed penalty notices by the police under Section 1 of the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001. Those powers are proposed to be conferred on community support officers under Part 1 of Schedule 4 of the Bill.
I have given as comprehensive a response as I can. I hope that I have given sufficient encouragement to my noble friend Lord Faulkner to enable him to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Elton: Before the noble Lord does so, I want to pursue the issue of the Royal Parks Police a yard or two further—or a metre or two further, as I believe we should now say. Although I am not one of the foremost supporters of the idea of auxiliary policemen, some of the powers that will be given to them in Schedule 4 appear to be extremely appropriate to people patrolling parks. I refer to the powers under the
Dogs (Fouling of Land) Act, the powers of an authorised officer of a litter authority, and the powers relating to anti-social behaviour and the consumption of alcohol in a public place. Those matters are somewhat akin to what a park-keeper used to do and should not be done by fully trained policemen. I might agree that the Royal Parks Police would be a good addition in this context but they do not appear to figure in the provisions.
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