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Baroness Gardner of Parkes: I am sure that everyone—I speak in particular for the women in the community—wants more police. As the noble Lord, Lord Condon, said, our absolute first choice is to have a much stronger and better police service. I speak of the Metropolitan area, which I know better than other areas. But I should be reluctant to throw out community support officers, because although I would put police first and specials second, I would rather have community support officers than no one. That is the situation at the moment: no one on the streets. The noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie, made an interesting point when he said that private bodies are giving the community what it is asking for. Anyone can put on any sort of uniform and go around. That is true.
I should like to correct an error I made at Second Reading when I said that we did not want a Miami-type situation and that the police had told me that 90 per cent of properties were not open to the police in Miami. Afterwards, the police told me that it was 19 per cent. I said that their officers had better be a little clearer next time because Hansard had correctly recorded me as saying 90 per cent. That is what I thought the officer had said, but 19 per cent of premises in Miami are unavailable to the ordinary police force there because they are totally controlled by private forces. I do not want to see such a great structure of private forces developed here. If the only alternative is community support officers, I would rather see them than lots of private security firms growing willy-nilly.
My noble friend Lord Dixon-Smith made some valid points, but my concern as an ordinary member of the public is, first, to see more police and, secondly, more specials, especially if we can give them more of an official role. I understand that at present many specials are unpaid. If we are to turn them into professionals we must pay them. As a third choice, I would go for community support officers.
Lord Mayhew of Twysden: I agree with my noble friend. In the last resort, the public would rather have entirely civilian and private community support officers than no one at all. I was interested to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie, had to say about Sedgefield. Of course, he speaks with tremendous authority as a professional police officer. I am sure that it is desirable to have some form of support rather than none. I assume that those people have no powers of arrest, but it would be interesting to know how they deal with minor vandalism. Perhaps the noble Lord will explain that later.
My noble friend Lord Fowler said that he was a qualified admirer of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. I
am rapidly becoming an unqualified admirer of his—qualified only because it is based on my experience of how he has dealt with this difficult Committee debate. I hope that he will continue to deal with it in the same way—I expect he will.Perhaps I may provide an analysis of the problem and ask the Minister's views on three or four questions. First, does he think that, rightly or wrongly, there is a lack of public confidence in the level of policing that they experience? If so, does he think that that derives from the public's belief that there is an insufficient rate of crime prevention and detection? I think the answer to both questions is yes, but it would be helpful to know if he agrees. If so, does he agree that it is elementary that that lack of confidence ought to be diminished? If his answer to that is yes, is there a more obvious way to diminish it than to have more police officers, if that were practical? Lastly, does he therefore think that there are too few police officers?
The public want to see people on the streets with the powers of police officers. If confidence is to be restored, those who are put on the streets to do something to remedy the lack of confidence must have police powers.
At Second Reading, I tried to draw attention to the extraordinary rigmarole that must be gone through by a civilian if his authority to ask for a name, address and so forth and to require someone to stick around for half an hour until a policeman turns up were to be questioned, as inevitably it will. I drew attention to the curious provision that he must say,
- "the accreditation . . . may provide that an offence is not to be treated as a relevant offence . . . unless it satisfies such other conditions as may be specified in the accreditation".
The Government must recognise that there are not enough police. Why are we not doing a New York? Presumably, because the money does not run to it. That is what the public fear. That is why people must be recruited who do not have the full powers of police—because if they did they would want to be paid what the police are paid. That is the problem that the Government face: they cannot attract the necessary increase in public confidence by those means. The public will think that they are doing it on the cheap.
I hope that I am wrong about that and the Minister will say, "We are pressing ahead with increased police numbers and the more we get, the more we shall encourage chief constables to put them on the street". But I think that my analysis is correct. I should be grateful if, when he comes to reply, the Minister would tell me whether I am right or wrong.
5.45 p.m.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate: Before the noble and learned Lord sits down, perhaps I can answer his question about Sedgefield, which is relevant. The community force in Sedgefield, which is employed by the local authority, has no additional powers to those of members of the public. The Committee must understand that there is not a great deal of difference between the powers of the police and the powers of members of the public under common law. Officers of the community force enforce the law as best they can. They deal with the very things that cause problems in communities. That is not bank robberies, stabbings and murders but graffiti and youths causing annoyance, swearing and urinating in public places—the quality of life issues, as I call them. The community force provides a presence and confronts such behaviour.
If the situation becomes confrontational to the extent that additional powers are required—it may well do and often does—community officers call the police to the scene of the incident and the police respond. They are in radio contact with the police and work closely with them. The noble and learned Lord asked what happens if people put two fingers up. After 35 years of policing, I can tell him that I have often had two figures put up to me. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Condon, has had the same experience.
The answer is that one acts on one's wits. Of course, that does not always succeed and one often ends up being assaulted. No doubt that would happen to community support officers, but that is no reason for not having the provisions of the Bill. Under the Bill, it is an offence to assault or run away from a community support officer who is trying to enforce the law. There is no excuse for not applying the Bill's provisions. I hope that that answers the noble and learned Lord's question.
Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I have not had a chance to intervene in the debate before now. Although I shall move an amendment later, I must justify my existence by speaking briefly now. I shall not speak specifically about community support officers, but about the powers that will be available to people such as community support officers or those from accredited organisations.
I represent the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, which is about to launch a borough constable unit. My amendment will propose that the powers available to them be slightly increased. At this point, however, I want to support what has been said about the desirability of having additional or supplementary people on the streets. It has become increasingly apparent that the sort of minor offences that have been referred to are beginning to cause enormous grief to residents and to the public and that the police have neither the time nor the presence to deal with them. Such offences must be dealt with, if we are all to have a reasonable quality of life. We must ensure that our estates and streets are properly managed.
I may intervene once or twice again, but I had thought that there might be a long distance between now and when we discuss my amendment, when I might be able to say more on the subject.
Lord Baker of Dorking: As a resident of South Kensington, in the Royal Borough, I am pleased to know that we will have borough constables, even with slightly enhanced powers. I appreciate the concerns that have been expressed by my noble friends, but I do not share them entirely. The proposal has quite a lot to be said for it, and I hope that the House will listen to the views of the noble Lord, Lord Condon, who has had responsibility for dealing with the country's greatest policing problems.
It is a little too facile to say, "If only we could have many more police officers". I increased the size of the police force, as did my noble friend Lord Waddington and my successor. I think I heard the previous Home Secretary say that he was increasing the size of the police force, and I dare say that the present Home Secretary says that he will increase it. It is a pity that we have not been a bit more successful in achieving that. If it were possible to increase the size of the police force significantly, all parts of the House would support that. However, there are difficulties, and we must accept that.
The other difficulty is that today's police officer must be trained in a range of skills that is unbelievable compared to the training given to a police officer 50 years ago. He must be trained not only in the ordinary duties of policing our streets but in the difficult business of dealing with marital conflict, dealing with a rape scene and dealing with drunken louts turned out of clubs at 3 o'clock in the morning, which is a more intense problem than it was when the pubs closed at 10 o'clock or whenever it was. He must be trained in the complicated area of interview techniques, which, of course, have changed as a result of PACE and developments of PACE. He is a much more professional person than the bobby on the beat of 50 years ago. It seems sensible to try to find people who can do some of the lesser policing jobs with slightly less training. That is what this is about.
Successive Home Secretaries have civilianised wherever they can. There has been much civilianisation in the big depots that control motorway surveillance. However, the question is whether we can do that on the beat, where officers will come into contact with the public. That is the issue about which my noble friend Lord Fowler spoke. Will it carry conviction? It will carry conviction in my borough, so I am pleased and relaxed about it, but we should address that problem.
Thirty years ago, the Metropolitan Police were responsible for all stationary vehicle offences in London. If a car was parked illegally, the police had to deal with it. They had to arrange for it to be towed away and for the owner to be summoned and taken to court. That responsibility was given over to a group of people called traffic wardens. When traffic wardens were first appointed, we had exactly the same debate. We asked ourselves, "How can we give to traffic
wardens the right to take away a vehicle that is owned by somebody? They are not as well trained; they are lightly trained". Now, we do it; we accept it automatically. Indeed, following the crisis on 11th September, when there was great pressure on security in London, the Metropolitan Police said that traffic wardens would take over all traffic responsibilities in London—the whole lot, the whole caboodle. That would be exercising police powers, but they were asked to do it in a crisis. I do not think that the liberties of London, as it were, were suddenly restricted by that. Therefore, I rather welcome the provision in the clause, and I hope that not many bars will be put in its way.
The noble Lord, Lord Condon, also mentioned the security responsibilities of the Metropolitan Police. Some of those require very specialist training. However, many embassies have a police officer standing outside for 365 days and nights a year—and nothing happens. There are embassies at which a lot can happen, and that requires particular training. However, there are many embassies at which absolutely nothing happens. Is that a sensible use of a police officer? I do not think that it is. As Home Secretary, I had protection, as did the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, and I have been happy with someone who was not a fully trained police officer standing outside my house. We should accept the fact that there are various activities that could suitably be carried out by other people. I hope that this is a gateway to that.
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