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Lord Dixon-Smith: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Condon, and the Minister for their responses. I am afraid that we are turning the devaluation screw on those people, and I am sad about that.

I did not speak to Amendment No. 199. It involves another aspect of what I refer to as the confusion caused by drawing functions from baskets. The amendment would reduce that effect. I do not intend to say any more about it. I am grateful for the Minister's explanation although I am not wholly satisfied by it. However, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Lord Rooker moved Amendment No. 198:

Page 32, line 25, leave out "his employment by a police authority" and insert "that employment"

On Question, amendment agreed to.

[Amendment No. 199 not moved.]

Lord Bradshaw moved Amendment No. 200:

Page 32, line 29, leave out subsection (7).

The noble Lord said: The amendment stands in my name and those of the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, and my noble friend Lord Dholakia. We are concerned about the exercise of reasonable force. That might provoke as much as contain attacks on CSOs. I seek from the Minister the assurance that it is for the chief police officer in consultation with his police authority to decide whether the clause should be invoked. Are all CSOs going to have to have the power to use reasonable force, other than in cases involving self-defence, or can the power be invoked if they wish to invoke it? I beg to move.

Lord Rooker: I can understand the concerns expressed by the noble Lord. We need to be clear about why we are extending the power to use reasonable force to civilians employed by the police authority and we need to be satisfied that we have sufficient safeguards in place.

I suppose that there will always be fears about the use of reasonable force by designated persons but I do not think that they are justified. In some ways, the amendment strikes at the heart of the whole of Clause 33. If we are serious about designating police employees who are not police constables to carry out their roles—of community support, investigating and detention and of being escort officers—it is important that we give them the necessary powers to perform their full role.

All of those types of police civilian have a need to use reasonable force in certain circumstances: to detain someone while awaiting the arrival of a constable, to prevent escapes or to search premises. To expect those civilian officers to carry out the important functions set out for them in the Bill without the sanction of using reasonable force would significantly undermine

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their credibility and effectiveness. It would also mean that they would need to be shadowed by a police officer who would be able to use reasonable force if necessary so that the civilian could carry out his duties. That would somewhat undermine the whole purpose of the clause, which will enable civilians to carry out discrete areas of policing business so that police officers are freed up to get back on the beat. That is the purpose of the exercise.

As I said in debates on other amendments, there will be significant safeguards in place to ensure that designated persons use any powers granted to them appropriately. To begin with, they must be police authority employees. They will be under the direction and control of a chief officer and will be accountable to him. As I said, the chief officer is under a duty to ensure that such people are suitable to carry out the functions, that they are capable of doing so and that they are adequately trained. The chief officer can modify or withdraw the designation at any time, if necessary. They will also be subject to the independent police complaints commission, whose role will form part of their training. In addition, they will have regard to the relevant Police and Criminal Evidence Act codes of practice, which will also form a necessary part of their training. Their powers are extremely limited but, without the possibility of using reasonable force, those limited powers would be made a mockery of.

I hope that I have satisfied the noble Lord. This is an extremely sensitive area. However, I do not believe that it is a question of our enabling the police to employ people who will misuse force. As I said, those people will be subject to the new complaints commission; they will be adequately trained; and they will be familiar with the powers that they have and will know how not to go beyond them.

Lord Mayhew of Twysden: Before the noble Lord sits down, surely there is a problem here. In our previous debate we agreed that the power to detain depends upon the terms of an individual officer's designation. Nevertheless, it is surely beyond argument that a police officer who is empowered to detain is empowered to use reasonable force. What is the position of a community support officer who has not, by the terms of his designation, been authorised to detain someone but who none the less, let us suppose, reads this clause or is instructed in it and recognises that a police constable is entitled to use reasonable force to detain? Where does he stand in those circumstances? Although his designation denies him the power to detain, the clause seems to confer it upon him. That is a muddle. I may be muddled myself but it is a muddle which the drafting gives rise to, and I believe that I am correct in that analysis. If that is the case, surely it cannot be right.

Lord Rooker: As ever, I am happy to have the drafting checked following what Members of the Committee have said. However, I have before me a comparison of community support officers and what I call the "extended police family"—the accredited people. A community support officer will have the

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power to detain a person for up to 30 minutes, pending the arrival of a constable, or to accompany a person to a police station with that person's agreement. He will have the power to use reasonable force to detain a person or to prevent him from making off.

That power will have to be used very carefully in conformity with what I have already said; that is, the officer will be subject to not "over-doing it", according to the requirements of the police complaints commission and those of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. However, if the noble and learned Lord has detected what he considers to be a drafting error in subsection (7), I shall certainly have it looked at.

Lord Carlisle of Bucklow: I wonder whether the Minister will look at this matter again. As I understand it, he said just now, in terms, that a community support officer will have the power to detain a person for up to 30 minutes until the police arrive. My reading of Schedule 4 is that he has no such power. Surely one cannot have a power to detain without having a power to arrest. The Minister has made clear that there is no intention of there being a power to arrest. But Schedule 4 does not say that he has a power to detain until a police officer arrives; it says that he can request a person to stay and, if he chooses not to do so, that choice is in itself an offence. With great respect, that is totally different from a power to detain.

I know that Part 2 of Schedule 4 is headed "Power to detain" but, unless I have completely misunderstood the purpose of the schedule, if the community officer sees someone whom he believes to have committed an offence, he has the right to ask for that person's name and address. If the person refuses, the community officer has the right to ask him to remain for up to 30 minutes until a police officer arrives or he may accompany him to the police station. The person in question is free to refuse to do either of those things but, in doing so, he will commit the offence of failing to comply with the request of the community support officer. With great respect, I believe that that is totally different from a power to detain, which must, of necessity, surely imply a power to arrest. One cannot detain a person unless one has already legally arrested him.

Lord Rooker: Until he reached his last few sentences, I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Carlisle, explained the matter correctly. But I believe that he is wrong in saying that the power to detain and the power to arrest are separate. I imagine that there will be arguments about this in future, although I hope that there will not necessarily be so. When does the 30-minute period start, for example? It will probably be at the point when a person decides not to co-operate with the community support officer, who will have asked the person either to supply a name and address or to wait until a police officer arrives.

Obviously the community support officer will be in touch with the police station by radio; it will not be done by semaphore. Therefore, if a person decides not to comply and looks as though he will make off, then, subject to the circumstances, the community support

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officer will have the power to use reasonable force to stop him making off and to make him await the constable, who will have the power to arrest. The power to arrest does not lie with the community support officer.

Lord Bradshaw: I thank the noble Lord for his reply. I come from a police authority which has never, for example, fired a firearm in anger; and it is a big police authority. I believe that some authorities may not want their community support officers to have such a power. I ask the Minister to consider making this not a mandatory power but a power with which the police authorities can accredit their officers if they wish.

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