| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: I share the Minister's admiration for the Explanatory Notes, which I found extremely helpful. But the noble Lord elided the final sentence of the first paragraph of the Explanatory Notes where it says,
- "If an applicant is a citizen of the Irish Republic or a Commonwealth citizen other residential and ancestry conditions must be satisfied".
My question is whether subsection (4) automatically eliminates the significance of that final sentence.
Lord Rooker: I cannot answer the noble Lord. I shall have to take advice. As I said originally, the barrier was reviewed many years ago and the service is now open to citizens of the Republic or the Commonwealth. They may not be British nationals, but nationals of another country resident here. It may be that their residence requirement is dependent on their ancestry. It may be an immigration factor. I shall look at that and write to the noble Lord if I do not provide an answer before we leave this part of the Bill.
Lord Renton: Perhaps I can raise a further point on the Explanatory Notes on which the noble Lord relies a great deal. I read the Explanatory Notes very carefully before we started this debate, in fact some
time ago. Having read them again I find that there is nothing in them which answers the various objections I raise to this clause.
Lord Rooker: The objections raised by the noble Lord, Lord Renton, were not valid, and I answered them. His argument that people would speak with the wrong dialect does not hold water. People will be required to communicate in the English language orally and in writing. We are a country of dialects. People do not understand mine. I could have trouble being understood in some parts of the country as a police officer. But I am British; I am white; and therefore it is okay. The implication that because they were not British and not white and therefore would not understand our dialects cannot be a legitimate barrier to their joining the police service.
Recruitment is not only based on communication; it is also based on skills and ability and the demonstration of the key competencies required for policing. People's competencies will be tested and if they do not meet the test they will not get in the door. That is the central issue. It does not matter whether they have a problem with their dialect or anything else. It may be that in some areas they need a dialect. I mean "up north" they might need a dialect. But the noble Lord's comments were not relevant and I answered any that were. If I may I shall write to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, and give him an answer.
Lord Monson: Can the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, say to what extent the Government have consulted the public at large about this clause? I am certain that the noble Lord, Lord Renton, is right in the sense that the public will not like it once it is brought to their attention, which has not yet happened. Members of the public will probably accept Commonwealth or Irish citizens. I am not sure that they would want—to take a few nationals at random—Greek, Russian or Iraqi citizens to have authority over them. "Authority" is the operative word.
Again, the Minister may not have the answer at his finger tips. Will he write to me and say whether there are other precedents for this move? Do any other EU countries allow foreigners to join their police service?
Lord Condon: While I was commissioner, we found that existing legislation inhibited the recruitment of many fine people who were living in this country and had done so for many years and who, in all other respects, satisfied the fit person requirements to become a police officer. The safeguards in Clause 60, requiring that any candidate would have to satisfy immigration regulations, language prescription, fit person and character conditions and so forth, are amply sufficient.
As the Minister said, this is not a question of seeking to go abroad and recruit actively; it is a question of removing barriers to entry for many candidates who have lived in this country for many years and who would be fine additions to the police service.
Lord Renton: I wonder whether the noble Lord will allow me to put a question to him. I listened with great respect—I always had respect for him, as he knows. Bearing in mind that in some parts of the country the police do not receive the public support they need, does he think that that support will be increased or lessened by the recruitment of foreigners?
Lord Condon: With respect to the noble Lord, Lord Renton, to use the term "foreigners" does not take the debate forward. Many able people living in this country, who have lived in this country for many years, would, with advantage and in the public interest, come into the service via this provision.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: I hesitate to intervene at such a late stage, but I cannot see why, if such a person should be a loyal, suitable person who has lived for many years in this country, he cannot make the choice and become a British citizen. I know the Minister said that in some cases difficulties arise over property rights. But it is such an important job and one where unquestioned loyalty— perceived as loyal by the ordinary man in the street—is so necessary that the simple answer is for them to become British subjects. Otherwise they will not be eligible.
7 p.m.
Lord Rooker: Matters are getting worse. I do not accept the arguments. In answer to the question on consultation I can say that I am not aware there was consultation as such, but the issue was raised in the White Paper Policing a New Century: A Blueprint for Reform. In the human resource management section, paragraph 6.16 says:
- "The restrictions on foreign nationals serving as police officers will be removed by the Police Bill".
Let me put it this way. All the examples have been one-sided, except for that of the noble Lord, Lord Condon. We are talking about the police authority over citizens. But by and large most people's contact with the police is when the police are helping them. Nobody asks the brain surgeon, "Is your nationality okay? I do not know whether I can trust you". They trust the fact that the person is qualified to do the job and has the professional qualifications. They probably would not even question their residency application. It is the quality of the people concerned that is important.
When the police are helping the general public, making inquiries after a crime or conducting a crime prevention survey, nobody will ask, "Are you British, because if you are not, I do not want your help?". That is the implication of what some noble Lords have said;
"negative" would be the polite way to describe what I have heard in the past half-hour. Noble Lords have not been able to give a good reason.I feel that I have answered the noble Baroness, Lady Park of Monmouth. I cannot give details of individual circumstances, although I could give examples from my constituency experience of people being caught up in problems because they could not have dual nationality. There is one nation in the European Union that does not allow dual nationality, so it is not a third world issue. It can be serious. Many people have put down roots here—perhaps, they have raised a family, done business or been educated and received their qualifications and skills here. They are as dedicated to this country as anybody else, but, because of some quirk, some nations have not got their act together to take account of the fact that people move around the planet in a way in which they never did before, which causes difficulties for individuals. However, that should not be a barrier to those people participating fully in the society in which they have chosen to put down roots, as long as they have as they have the necessary competences, skills and abilities.
The implication of what the noble Baroness, Lady Park of Monmouth, said is that nobody of British nationality has ever been a traitor. That is the implication of her question about whether they were fully up to scratch with their allegiance. Most traitors to this country came from the upper class, and they were all British. We should not enter a diversionary debate, in the belief that everything is black and white.
We heard the noble Lord, Lord Condon, say that he had personal front-line experience of people who would have made a good contribution to the police service in this country being prevented doing so because of a quirk of nationality. That problem may not have been of their creation, but they could not get out of it, perhaps because of their children or whatever; I do not know. It could have been because of the effect on the rights of their family in the other country or other family responsibilities. We simply do not know.
I suspect that the clause will get another run-out on Report. I shall probably be able to deploy more and better arguments for those noble Lords whom I have been unable to satisfy now.
Lord Monson: I accept some of what the Minister says, but does he agree that a brain surgeon cannot stop someone in the street and search them or pull them up in their car on a motorway? The question of authority is at the crux of the matter.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: I should like to say that the issue of treason did not cross my mind. I was merely concerned about the degree of authority that someone might have in such cases, not about treason.
Next Section
Back to Table of Contents
Lords Hansard Home Page