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Lord Thomas of Gresford: I am pleased to hear the Minister support the devolution settlement, which we on these Benches accepted and promoted with even greater fervour than those on his own side.
The noble Lord should look a little more closely at Scotland. I made the point that the eight territorial police forces fall under Scottish jurisdiction. But the British Transport Police, the Ministry of Defence Police, the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority Constabulary and the National Criminal Intelligence Service—bodies which he mentioned in his reply—all come under the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom Government. That is the settlement that has been achieved in Scotland. I do not seek to change that; nor did I suggest it. I simply say that Wales has police forces which should come under the territorial police forces, which should come under a far more democratic jurisdiction than that of the Secretary of State for whom the noble Lord speaks when he replies in this debate.
Therefore, this is not as momentous as the noble Lord thinks. If it helps him, it was in 1453 that the Grand Court of Wales and the Marches was abolished by a Welsh-speaking Welsh king by the name of Henry VIII. We talk about Henry VIII clauses, but in fact he put together the two jurisdictions of that time.
Although in earlier proposals that I drafted for a parliament for Wales I proposed the resurrection of that court, we have not quite gone that far. It is perfectly possible for the police forces in Wales to co-operate with all the police forces in England and with the bodies to which the noble Lord referred—particularly with the scientific bodies which serve not only England and Wales but much wider areas—and for the tripartite arrangement, as exists in Scotland, to apply in Wales as well.He invites me to return to the matter on Report in order to pursue this point. I accept that invitation. I shall consider the amendment as he suggests and I shall try to put it into a more succinct compass. We shall discuss the matter further. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 7 [Minor and Consequential Amendments]:
Lord Dholakia moved Amendment No. 336:
- Page 130, line 40, at end insert—
The noble Lord said: This is a minor amendment. Unlike the previous amendment, it has no major implications. I hope that the Government will have no difficulty in accepting it. It is prompted by the desire of the police authorities to enhance their capacity to do an effective job to secure the best possible policing for their communities. I know that police authorities are committed to working with the Government to achieve a fundamental and radical improvement in policing. They fully support the aims of the Government. However, there is disagreement on the way in which the Government have chosen to secure those aims, but not with the aims themselves.
Unlike the Government, police authorities do not have ready access to independent objective advice on the work of their forces. HMIC carries out a valuable job in providing inspection reports but currently sees its role as reporting primarily to the Home Secretary or to the chief constable. This amendment would enable police authorities to be pro-active and to call in HMIC or local auditors where they have concerns about a particular aspect of local policing, or where they would find it helpful to have independent, professional advice on a particular issue.
We believe that self-improvement is always more effective than intervention imposed from outside. Rather than having to wait to be told that things are going wrong, police authorities want to take pre-emptive action locally. I hope that that is an attitude
Earl Attlee: Can the noble Lord, in winding up, explain why his amendment does not appear to cover the British Transport Police, the Ministry of Defence Police and other forces?
Lord Bassam of Brighton: This amendment would allow any police authority to require Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary, the Audit Commission, and the local authority within the relevant police area to disclose any information or to make a report. I presume that the intention is to cover information or reports relevant to the policing of the area, but as the amendment is drafted it does not state that. The effect would be much wider.
I have some difficulty with the amendment because it appears that the noble Lord is seeking to achieve through legislation something that would be better achieved by voluntary co-operation and through the spirit of mutual good working practices. The noble Lord made the point that in many instances it is better to achieve co-operation and good working practices to raise standards. This amendment appears to force the issue through legislation. Is this the right way to proceed when there is such good co-operation already? I wonder whether the Local Government Association, to which the APA is aligned, would be concerned—I am sure that it would be—about the proposed power to direct information or reports from local authorities.
We are unaware of any instance which would merit the extensive power provided in the amendment. I can see the benefit of reports and information being shared. We all share a common understanding of the need for that. However, I am not sure that to force the measure through by this approach adds to the existing provisions. I suspect that it may set up some suspicions, particularly where there is a requirement on local authorities to direct information or reports.
Lord Dholakia: The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, asked why the British Transport Police and other parties have not been included. We were concerned by the representations made to us by the police authorities. That is why we included them in the amendment. However, when talking about good practice there is no reason why others should not be involved.
The Minister's answer is most unhelpful. We are talking about best practice. We have not seen evidence of local co-operation working effectively as it would if there were the power to call in HMIC auditors to help in terms of better policing. We shall reconsider the matter and, if necessary, return to it on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Dholakia moved Amendment No. 337:
The noble Lord said: Like the previous amendment, this amendment is about enabling police authorities to do their job effectively.
The amendment would mean that police authorities could decide their own staffing levels rather than having to seek the agreement of the chief officer. It may seem peculiar, but although the police authority holds the police budget and decides how to allocate resources, it has to seek the chief officer's consent to increase its own staff even by one. Such a restriction is inappropriate and has led to difficulties in some areas—difficulties which have arisen only because of the way in which the legislation is currently framed.
The Government should recognise that police authorities are responsible enough bodies to decide their own staffing levels. Most authorities have only a handful of staff. They are always reluctant to devote resources to their own support staff if this will detract in any way from the front line policing services provided to their communities. However, it is important that police authorities are properly resourced and have the tools to carry out their duties effectively. If they need an officer to undertake research or analysis they should be able to employ one without needing the chief officer's agreement.
This Bill is about modernising and improving policing. This small amendment will contribute to that by helping police authorities secure improvements in local policing by doing their job more effectively. I beg to move.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: Again, I can see where the noble Lord comes from on this issue. I understand some of the force of the argument underlying the amendment. However, we cannot see a self-evident problem that needs to be addressed in the way the noble Lord suggests. It is obviously right that police authorities are appropriately resourced to carry out their functions in setting a budget, the appointment of senior officers, local policing plans, best value and so on. But I am not sure that the proposition that the noble Lord makes deals with that problem. Nor are we convinced that there are conflicts or difficulties which give rise to this solution.
In the absence of any evidence that it is a major issue for police authorities and chief officers, it is not an amendment we can support. The noble Lord may wish to reflect on that point and suggest that the APA makes representations on the issue, perhaps to officials in the Home Office to see whether there is some other way in which the issue can be teased out without the
"In section 6 of the 1996 Act (general functions of police authorities), after subsection (5) there shall be inserted—
"(6) A police authority for any police area shall have power to call for information or reports from Her Majesty's Inspectors of Constabulary, the Audit Commission or any relevant council for that authority.""
Page 131, line 5, at end insert—
"In section 15 of the 1996 Act (civilian employees), for subsection (3) there shall be substituted—
"(3) Subsection (2) shall not apply to such persons employed by the authority for its own support as may be determined by that authority.""
10.15 p.m.
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