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Lord Harrison: My Lords, does the noble Lord understand the phrase, "that seriously compromises the welfare of the fox" as involving cruelty?
Lord Willoughby de Broke: No, my Lords, I do not think that that means that cruelty is involved. It means that that approach compromises the welfare of the fox, just as any other method of control compromises the welfare of the fox, including shooting, gassing, snaring or trapping. Likewise, fishing compromises the welfare of the fish; that is obvious.
I believe that those who wish to ban hunting must look a little beyond the case for a simple ban by considering the consequences. We have heard that a ban would not save the life of a single fox. That is self-evident; we know that. Apparently it does not matter that possibly tens of thousands of people would lose their jobs, their livelihoods and, in some cases, their homes if hunting were banned. It does not matter if the rural economy suffers so long as those who wish to ban hunting can go home with a clear conscience saying, "We have banned hunting. It does not really matter what happens to the rural economy or jobs".
Apparently it does not matter that, in most cases, farmers welcome hunting. I remind your Lordships that hunting simply could not continue to exist without the co-operation and encouragement of farmers. We hunt because farmers invite us on to their land to control foxes. The idea that we can somehow substitute drag hunting for fox hunting is fanciful. What farmer would allow people to gallop all over his land if there were no pest-control element—a point made very well by the noble Lord, Lord Plant?
Therefore, it seems to me that so long as people who want to ban fox hunting obtain a ban, nothing else really matters. That is a pity. But, of course, such a stance is morally and intellectually unsustainable. What is it about fox hunting that is so singularly deserving of the attention of the antis and the banners? As my noble friend Lord Patten said, what about fishing or shooting? Shooting causes suffering and fishing certainly does so. The noble Baroness, Lady Golding, admitted that. Even in the debates in the other place, which were not terribly illuminating, it was clear that those who support coarse fishing glory in the fact that they have caught their fish. They catch it, weigh it, photograph it and then put it back for someone else to catch all over again. Fishing and shooting have their own problems. Why is only fox hunting the focus of the ban? I do not understand that.
No real case seems to have been made for a ban either in yesterday's debate in the other place or today. I hope that, when it comes to a vote tonight, this House will send out a strong message that it will not support vindictive legislation that seeks to criminalise law-abiding people who pursue the sport—one of the many country sports—of their choice.
I believe that a far better approach is that advocated by the Middle Way Group, which I strongly support. I shall not waste your Lordships' time by going through the provisions of the middle way in any detail. That has already been done very effectively by the noble Baroness, Lady Golding, and by the noble Lord, Lord Donoughue. I can only say that it is a vast improvement on the middle way as originally postulated in the Bill, which we still have here in front of us. We held two days of hearings and everyone who was interested in the issues was invited to attend. We even invited Deadline 2000, which I understand now trades under a different name. Members of that organisation declined to come. I do not know why. They simply said that they were not interested in discussing issues. I believe that that meant that they were not really interested in going beyond their ban. They did not want to engage in the debate.
It may be worth reminding your Lordships that, I believe, four directors of the League Against Cruel Sports have resigned because they have thought about the matter. They have engaged in the debate and have gone beyond the wish for a simple ban. They realise that the best way to control foxes is through fox hunting and that the alternatives will be more cruel.
Therefore, I believe that the middle way is the way forward. Last year, I received a number of letters from friends and other people who fox hunt who said, "We do not really support the middle way. It is too bureaucratic". I have received a series of letters this year from people who say, "We would like to give it a try. We believe that things have changed. It sounds as though the middle way has modified its proposals. It is less bureaucratic and less cumbersome. It will be easier to get a licence".
We see no difficulty at all—I speak for myself and for my local hunt—in complying with any rules and regulations which are put forward provided that they
are reasonable. After all, we complied very happily with the DEFRA rules which were sensibly put in place. There was no problem in complying with the need to disinfect our boots, our horses, our cars and everything else. Hunting people are law-abiding. We shall obey the law.If the middle way is put forward along the lines that we have proposed, I do not believe that there will be any difficulty in obtaining the obedience and co-operation of the hunting community. I believe that that community would accept a middle-way Bill and we should be that much further forward. I hope that any eventual middle-way legislation would work and that it would be obeyed in the same way as the DEFRA rules were obeyed. In that spirit, I ask noble Lords to give the middle way a strong vote of confidence tonight.
3.15 p.m.
Lord Weatherill: My Lords, I intervene as a former Speaker of the other place and a former Whip. By the way, if hunting is banned, I suppose that we shall have to think of another word for "Whip". Perhaps some of my noble friends on all sides of the House will be able to assist in that.
When I was the Speaker, I longed to hear the comment that I am about to make: the point that I had intended to make in this debate has been better made by the noble Lord who has just spoken and I shall not delay your Lordships.
The noble Lord, Lord Willoughby de Broke, is a member of the Middle Way Group, as, indeed, am I. Its case has been very well put not only by him but by our chairman, the noble Baroness, Lady Golding, and by the noble Lord, Lord Donoughue. Therefore, I shall not repeat it.
I declare a personal interest. Some of your Lordships may know that I am a tailor by trade. I completed a four-year apprenticeship as a breeches maker. Most of the garments that I made, I judge, were used in the hunting field. I regret to say that, whenever I open Horse and Hound, I find far too many advertisements in the agony column for "second-hand Bernard Weatherill hunting coats". That may not be of much interest to noble Lords but it is perhaps an eloquent example that hunting is not only for the toffs.
This has been a very serious debate and I hope that we can relax for one moment. I am a great devotee of Surtees' John Jorrocks. I hope that it is of interest to your Lordships that this fictitious hunting grocer used to hunt the Surrey hills in my former constituency of Croydon. Indeed, there is a statue to him in George Street, Croydon. It is regularly desecrated but, of course, he never existed. Many of his bons mots are well worth bearing in mind, and I hope that I may be allowed to quote just one. It went something like this: "Eh, you, 'airdresser, 'old 'ard". "Hairdresser be damned. I am an officer of the 41st Foot". "Well you, officer of the 41st Foot what looks like an 'airdresser, 'old 'ard". Then we had: "'Anging's too good for 'e. 'E should be forced to 'unt in Berwickshire for the rest of your life". In that comment, I apologise to the noble
Lord, Lord Palmer, who is a very good friend of mine. I mention it merely to stress that we must not get into the awful mess in which they find themselves in Scotland, as so eloquently expressed by the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose.We all know why we are spending parliamentary time on this issue when there are many other pressing matters demanding the Government's attention. When our hospitals, schools and transport system all seem to be near collapse and when our streets are becoming even more unsafe, the question of whether or not to ban a minority blood sport is, essentially, a trivial issue. However, that is not the case in the countryside where jobs, work and wages will be put at risk if hunting is banned.
The issue is not one of cruelty. As we have heard on several occasions, foxes are serial killers and need to be culled. We have heard that shooting, poisoning and trapping as alternatives to hunting may cause even greater cruelty and, often, a lingering death. If the issue were simply one of cruelty, then opponents of hunting should visit the slaughterhouses where meat is prepared in conditions that do not bear scrutiny. That point was well made by the noble Lord, Lord Patten. I can say that because I am a vegetarian. In the light of the biblical references made by the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, I imagine that he has also signed the pledge.
This issue is essentially one of freedom and of liberty. The freedom of country people to go about their traditional way of life is being put in jeopardy for political expediency. What comes next? Possibly shooting, even fishing.
Despite the vote in the other place last night, despite the Prime Minister's personal vote, I do hope that wiser counsels will prevail. I hope that our vote tonight will demonstrate the importance of the role of your Lordships' House in asking the Government to think again.
3.21 p.m.
The Earl of Erroll: My Lords, those noble Lords with white speakers' lists may be confused to see me rise, but the green lists have my name on them. This is due to a mix-up on hearing my name over the telephone. The noble Earl, Lord Arran, will not be speaking today.
I have never hunted, but I have been stalking and I shoot. I wish to make some brief points. First, the democratically elected House that we hear so much about was not actually elected by a majority of the electorate. It was elected on a very low turnout. When one has an issue like this, with no clear government line, it is not suitable to use the Parliament Act to force it through.
Secondly, the overwhelming majority of the lobbying material I have recently received has been pro-hunting and against a ban—at least 99 per cent. I have had only one letter advocating a ban. However, we know there are many people who would like a ban. The answer seems to be that the strength of opinion is much stronger among people who want to see hunting
continue. They care about it. The rest do not really care. Pollsters ask them a question and they reply. We should think about that when we talk about forcing measures through Parliament which may not be strongly supported in the country.At the countryside march, a huge number of people turned up in central London, many more than the figures published for political reasons showed. With the low turnout at the general election, I cannot understand what the Labour Party is trying to do. This issue could get many Conservatives, who could not be bothered to vote last time, to turn out at the next election, particularly if another party suggested it might reintroduce hunting under licence. The whole thing is very stupid.
Job losses are grossly underestimated. The speech of my noble friend Lord Weatherill illustrated that. Many industries depend indirectly on sporting pursuits. Many of those are intertwined with country pursuits and field sports.
With regard to control, the Bateson report has been referred to. There has been a good deal of debunking of that report. It can be very dangerous to look back at older reports. I saw a very good debunking in a magazine called LM—I later discovered it stood for "Living Marxism"—which amused me.
Another point needs to be clarified. I refer to the statement of the noble Lord, Lord Burns, about "seriously compromising welfare". He was asked about this later and said that he deliberately used those words to avoid saying that hunting was cruel. It is wrong for people to read more than that into his words .
As a result of this envy of foxhunters, a good many other problems will arise. Mink are difficult to control. I am given to understand that hunting mink with dogs is one of the very few methods of achieving moderately effective control. In trying to protect endangered species, it is sad when measures do not stand close scrutiny. The debate does not apply in Scotland because the Scottish Parliament has banned hunting with dogs. However, that decision may not stand.
At this point I declare an interest. One of the tiny bits of Scotland I own is a rock off the coast of Aberdeenshire on which puffins nest. I would hate it if mink managed to get on to that island. They would wipe out the puffins immediately. If there are no means of controlling the mink, what should one do?
I stalk and I am therefore well aware of the dangers of shooting animals and birds with rifles, particularly in populated areas. In large tracts of England, it is difficult to find somewhere where one can fire a rifle safely. One has to be very careful about what is in the background or who might be around. The country is criss-crossed with footpaths. It is not a simple thing. The police are tightening up heavily on the use of firearms—probably too much—but one does have to be careful. Shooting is not a realistic method of controlling pests in populated areas.
Envy is at the heart of the debate. Someone said that hunting is a very expensive form of pest control—but not for the person who wants his pests controlled. It is
one case in which the pest controller is willing to pay huge amounts of money. As a Scotsman, I think that it is wonderful to get them to pay. They are law-abiding members of society. They co-operate with the police. I would hate to see that break down. But why do they pay? I am sure it is because of the thrill of the chase. There is a thrill in hunting.Perhaps the Government would do better to spend all this money on enabling disaffected youths to take part in hunting and field sports. They might then direct some of their aggression, which they release elsewhere, on something that is not harming other people.
Finally, I shall see what the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, advises. She is always very sound on these issues.
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