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Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, the noble Lord did it very well!
Lord King of Bridgwater: My Lords, I know the noble Lord's power of repartee. He will recall that that is what he said. That is the spirit which underpins a huge amount of the debating on this subject in the House of Commons.
I have been elected more times than most of the people who voted on this subject yesterday in another place. I have listened to these debates. The depth of ignorance is profound. I had hoped that an intelligent contribution made by the Government and Mr Jack Straw to ask the noble Lord, Lord Burns, to conduct his inquiries and to publish his report might actually inform the subject rather better for the benefit of many of my colleagues in the House of Commons. The noble Lord may not wish to comment.
The disappointing thing about the debate after the Burns report was that hardly anybody in the House of Commons had actually read it. I am prepared to say that to the noble Lord who, in the interests of new technology, published the Bateson and Harris report. It was a very important report on the welfare of the stag and the deer and the effect on the hunting of deer. Contract 7 was published only on a CD-Rom. I am prepared to guess that nobody has read that except me. The reality is that it is a dialogue of the deaf founded on profound ignorance. As a recent Member of the House of Commons, that tells one a lot about the
present House of Commons. If I needed a reminder of that, the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant, made the point very well.The first debate in which I had the pleasure to take part in your Lordships' House was on the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Bill. It was produced as something of a knee-jerk reaction by the Home Office in response to September 11th. It was an understandable and desirable political response to be seen to act. That Bill came virtually unamended and untouched from another place. It was wafted through on guillotines. I do not believe that a single iota of it was changed. It came to your Lordships' House where it was the subject of serious debate. There was significant amendment by your Lordships' House anxious to protect the proper liberties of the subject and the freedom of the individual, which many of your Lordships felt were seriously threatened by measures in that Bill.
If I remember, the same speeches were made in the other place—"outrageous interference by unelected Peers". But after the shouting and the fury died, wiser counsels prevailed. I believe that I am right in saying that, with very few exceptions, your Lordships' amendments were all accepted. They were an indication of why your Lordships have a role to play. As one of the most recent recruits to this House, I say that after a lifetime spent in another place.
As to the need for wiser counsel and consideration of the issues, the best speech on the subject that I heard in another place was by the then leader of the Liberal Party, David Steel—now the noble Lord, Lord Steel. He rode a horse but did not hunt. He said then and would say again today, I am sure, that the issue is not whether one is for or against hunting. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. So much of this debate is people expressing their opinion.
The noble Lord, Lord Graham, spoke of his emotional reaction—which I respect. Thousands of my constituents have the same emotional reaction. The issue is not whether one is for or against hunting but whether one bans other people from doing something of which one personally disapproves. David Steel said that no true Liberal should embrace that offence against the liberty of the individual and freedom. It is one thing to hold an opinion; it is another to seek to impose that opinion on others, to prevent them doing something that may be properly conducted and legal.
I mentioned that I represented a constituency having two packs of staghounds. It has also two of the finest herds of deer in this kingdom. It is no accident that the two go together. Lloyd George required the reintroduction of staghounds to the Quantocks during the first world war, to protect and preserve the stags there—which were in danger of extinction. That herd survived and now flourishes.
I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, because I did not know that he was going to speak about stag hunting, so I missed what he said. The noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, spoke of the subtle balance. That was
the subject of a very good video, "Guardians of the Deer", for which Ludovic Kennedy did the commentary. The farmers and hunters on Exmoor and the Quantocks feed and protect the deer. There were deer throughout the country at one stage. Venison is a valuable meat. Once the hunt goes, the poachers and the guns arrive and the deer are threatened. The noble Baroness gave some worrying figures for National Trust land on the edge of Exmoor where hunting has been banned.Anyone who is familiar with Exmoor will know that the deer are the pride of that national mark, which is symbolised by the fine head and antlers of a red stag. It is no coincidence that the all-party pro or anti-hunting Exmoor national park committee and the pro-hunting/anti-hunting all-party Exmoor society, dedicated to the conservation of deer on Exmoor, say that one cannot ban stag hunting on Exmoor without an alternative deer management strategy. Otherwise—I say this to the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle—we shall be condemning the magnificent deer herds on Exmoor to potential extinction.
That is a difficult argument to explain. Many people cannot understand that hunting, which they think as killing, serves to protect in a community of interest. For a farmer, one of the worst experiences in one's life is the prospect of as many as 100 deer coming down from the top of the Quantocks to graze on one's stocks. Unless one has a sympathy for the herd and a real identity of interest one will not tolerate that happening. The National Trust is having to pay out larger and larger funds in compensation to farmers on the Honeycut and other estates because of the banning of hunting and the number of deer eating the crops of tenant farmers. That will be reflected across 280 farms within the perimeter of the Quantocks and on Exmoor.
In a wise speech, a former Speaker called for wiser counsels to prevail in another place as well as in your Lordships' House. We are holding this debate at a time of the greatest depression in rural areas in my lifetime. People have said that there will be real anger if Parliament and the Government take unwise decisions. I do not support direct action but there is a sense of despair and anger. The Minister responsible for the decision is the Minister for Rural Affairs, so he has no excuse for saying that he does not know the gravity of the current situation. The decision that the Government will take on this matter is not without consequences. I hope that they will think hard. I have supported the status quo but tonight I shall support the middle way in the hope that we can at last find a sensible and constructive way of resolving this difficult issue in a way that can unite our country again.
5.20 p.m.
Lord Peston: My Lords, in addressing noble Lords this evening I have to declare a total lack of interest! I find it impossible to understand why someone apparently in his or her right mind would get up on an ugly great animal and go out on a cold, wet and windy day in order to gallop across fields accompanied by yapping dogs in pursuit of a quarry they rarely see and do not always catch. But I find it hard to understand
the pursuits of many of my fellow men and women. In this country many of us are eccentric to a degree that is just about this side of sanity. I give an example. Tomorrow evening I shall sit in front of a television set wearing my lucky red and white scarf and hope that it helps Arsenal beat Juventus.But whatever the eccentricities or oddities of our fellow citizens, they are none of my or our business. Anyone devoted to the liberal empiricist tradition of our country knows that full well. The presumption must be that people should be free to go their own way and to get pleasure how they will. The trouble is that within our society we have the busybody tendency. I refer to those who with nothing better to do poke their noses into a variety of activities with which frequently they have no direct connection but which they are convinced ought to be banned. I am reminded of the great H L Mencken's definition of "Puritanism" which noble Lords will recall is the haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy.
The case that is put forward is that the activities we are discussing are offensive. The reply to that is twofold. First, from a philosophical standpoint, one cannot go logically from, "I find X offensive", to "X should be banned". One simply cannot do that logically. History is littered with the appalling consequences of arguing in precisely that way. Secondly, if not giving offence is the criterion, one wonders what will be left for any of us to do except to watch the mindless rubbish put out on television. As I find that offensive, perhaps that ought to be banned too.
Apart from enunciating the classical liberal position, we also have to ask ourselves: what is this really all about? I noticed that in the other place one honourable Member said that it was all about the Prime Minister's way of reigniting socialism
- "red in tooth and claw".
I believe that this is the first step in a much more powerful busybody tendency—various other noble Lords have already mentioned this—which will lead us to banning all sorts of other activities. It will clearly lead to the banning of game shooting, angling and many activities of that kind. Taken logically, it will certainly lead, so far as I can see, to the end of all farming with animals and so on. It will also lead—I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, made this point—to the complete abandonment of the use of animals in experiments, no matter how beneficial the results of those experiments may be for human beings. My own judgment is that you must interpret this as a first step. I believe that the role of Parliament is to try to stop it now, not much later, when the argument will be, "You banned fox hunting. Now let's ban this, this and this". The list would be endless.
Finally—in the great desire to be brief and to get the vote over and done with—I turn to the constitutional position. One day, when we have legislation before us, we may be threatened with the Parliament Act and, if we do not behave, with the abolition of your Lordships' House. Whatever happens then, the constitutional position today—by "today" I mean at this very minute—is different. We have a free vote. I believe that the duty of noble Lords—every one of us—is to vote not for what the Commons has told us we have to vote for but for what we ourselves believe is right. We must do no more but surely no less. In my case, that means that I shall vote against an outright ban and in favour of statutory control.
5.25 p.m.
Viscount Bledisloe: My Lords, I apologise for speaking in the gap. Unfortunately, my request to be put at the proper and lowly place at the bottom of the speakers list led to my immediate elevation to an inaccessible place at the top. I want to make one point, about which I feel very strongly as a lawyer.
As the noble Lords, Lord King and Lord Peston, pointed out, this is not a question of whether one likes or does not like hunting; it is a question of whether one bans it, and whether one does so by making it a criminal offence. Surely that would be a fundamental misuse of the criminal law. Whatever Miss Widdecombe may have said in another place, the criminal law exists to enforce generally accepted principles of behaviour. It is not there to impose the views or ethics of the majority—or of an alleged majority—on a sizeable minority. The acts that constitute criminal offences are those that virtually everyone regards as being wrong in principle. There may be doubts about the details. Everyone agrees that there must be a limit on how fast one can drive, but they may argue about how fast that should be. However, the criminal law criminalises acts that the world—or the country—at large agrees are unacceptable.
It is because of those principles that I argue that the criminal law is not there to forbid the minority its activities. Those are the reasons why we have decriminalised homosexuality and why we do not make smoking or adultery—if that remains a minority activity nowadays—criminal offences. If it is logical to ban hunting because the majority of people in the country do not approve of it, we should go back and ban homosexuality, smoking and so on and—probably—return to puritanical law.
I therefore urge noble Lords to remember that this is not a matter of individual taste; it is a matter of whether the criminal law should be invoked to impress the wishes and ethics of some on other people, who are right-minded citizens.
5.28 p.m.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, early in our debate, my noble friend Lord McNally said that he doubted whether anyone would change their mind during our debate and vote differently. I am
grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford, who, although he did not change his mind this afternoon, at least admitted to changing it in the course of time from supporting a ban to supporting the middle way.That is particularly interesting in view of the attitude of those noble Lords who opposed any change when we previously debated the matter. If noble Lords at that time had dug their heels in a little less and been more willing to opt for the middle way, as we have heard today they are now willing to do, we should not be having this debate. I was very disappointed by the way in which they voted last time. I shall with pleasure join them in the Lobby this time to support the middle way. They should be under no illusions—for people such as me, that will not entail simply supporting the status quo by another name. I shall be looking to amend any Bill that comes forward under that option so that the hunting of hares in all forms, including hare coursing, and, indeed, the hunting of deer, will not be an option. I believe that that is the message from the Burns inquiry.
The noble Lord, Lord Burns, found serious compromises for animal welfare in many areas. In fact, I believe that the only area where he considered that there could be justification for hunting was in relation to foxes in the uplands. In that case, he found it to be a reasonable method of pest control. It would be a great shame if anyone were to behave like the lizard's tail, continuing to twitch when detached from the body of evidence before it.
Where noble Lords did manage to reach a degree of consensus—whether they were for a ban or against it—was on the matter of the evolutionary approach. My noble friend Lord McNally said that everyone, in his own time, would reach a conclusion as to what was appropriate. I believe that some of the differences between my noble friend and me may be accounted for by the possibility that he is further forward on the evolutionary scale than I am. I also respect those who are vegetarians because I believe that they are even further forward on that evolutionary scale. However, that does not mean that trying to reach a consensus little by little is wrong.
I turn now to the reasons against a ban, mentioned by various noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, the noble Earl, Lord Peel, and the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe. Those noble Lords said that a ban would be unenforceable. I believe that many noble Lords agree that the criminal justice system is experiencing an extremely difficult time. If we should opt for the middle way, I hope that when the Minister comes to reply he will be able to say that the enforcement of such a system will be given careful consideration.
Several other noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Mackie of Benshie, the noble Lord, Lord Walton of Detchant, and the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, mentioned the difficult issues faced in Scotland by the hasty introduction of legislation.
On the other side, the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, believed that we were perhaps grossly exaggerating the issue of social activity. I believe that hunting is a social activity—it is a natural meeting place for the like-minded. However, I agree with the noble Lord that it is exaggerated. My experience last Saturday illustrated that point. My husband and I were out walking across the Somerset moors when we came across a meeting with a pack of beagles. We noticed that on the passenger seats of the shiny, mud-free cars were open road atlases. That did not exactly suggest that only locals were meeting for the afternoon.
However, the main issue raised by many noble Lords was that of species management and the framework within which it could be progressed. The Government must address that matter, whichever way the issue goes. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater, who set out in great detail the issues of deer management on Exmoor, in particular.
Another issue which the noble Lord may have noted, and about which I am sure he is most knowledgeable, is that of damage caused by deer. It is estimated that the cost of such damage to each farm-holding is approximately £500 a year and that in the order of 40,000 highway accidents occur each year. Thus far, the Government have resisted bringing forward any legislation to give a statutory framework to deer management, but I believe that such legislation will be essential.
There is also, of course, the issue of badgers. At present they are protected but they also cause an increasing problem in many areas, not least urban areas where the foundations of houses are affected. In rural areas, again, badgers are a road hazard and, indeed, are killed on roads. There is also the ongoing issue of TB in cattle. Therefore, it is absolutely essential that the Government bring forward some means of managing the various species which will no longer be hunted.
Many noble Lords also mentioned the unacceptable aspects of hunting, such as digging out, hare coursing and hunting. The noble Lord, Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, suggested that we get rid of those unacceptable practices. The noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, suggested that we should not throw them in as a trophy. I fundamentally disagree with that. It is not a new problem. Looking back, I notice that in 1848 the Hare Act facilitated hunting. In 1892, the government of the day had to pass the Hare Preservation Act.
What we are looking at is balancing minority rights against animal rights. I know that some noble Lords like the noble Earl, Lord Peel, deny that animals have rights, but I believe that they do. I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater, for his kind remarks about my noble friend, Lord Steel. It is a question of balance. Today's debate should have been helpful to the Government.
The reasons mentioned against statutory legislation by noble Lords have been more red tape. If the process is managed properly, that should not be a difficulty.
I shall try to be brief, in order to get to the vote, which I know noble Lords are anxious to have. The noble Lord, Lord Fyfe of Fairfield, the noble Lord, Lord Lucas and the noble Lord, Lord Hardy of Wath, all mentioned different forms of cruelty.
Hunting is certainly no more cruel than keeping unfortunate animals in cages as pets to be overfed or poked at by their owners—often small children encouraged to own such pets. Nor is hunting more cruel than condemning chickens to life in battery cages for cheap eggs. We are still able to do that because we have not addressed that problem sufficiently.
We have been caught between an upbringing on a diet of Beatrix Potter and Wind in the Willows belief. The noble Lord, Lord Monson and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford both mentioned how we anthropomorphize animals—where Ratty and Renard are animals with human wishes and feelings. Yet, in a globalised world, we are able to ship animals over continents, so they suffer for days, not minutes or hours.
Noble Lords will be aware of the cruelty caused by carelessness when we flush hormones down our lavatories which threaten to wipe out whole species of fish and molluscs by changing males into females. This is not intentional cruelty, but is cruelty by carelessness, nevertheless.
Within such a context, we should not be diverted into a belief that banning all hunting will make this country a much better animal habitat. That will be done by the less headline-grabbing work of habitat restoration and its maintenance to support the creatures who live within it.
The Government took some first steps last year by implementing the Countryside Rights of Way Act, especially Part III. They need to progress that work and bring in species management. They need to support a consensual approach to all this work in the countryside. I do not believe that will be achieved by banning hunting with hounds. I do believe it will be achieved by voting for the middle way.
5.38 p.m.
Viscount Astor: My Lords, it is nearly a year since I stood at this Dispatch Box and wound up our last debate on the future of hunting. Last time 60 noble Lords spoke, today there are only 46. That is modest progress.
Much has happened in the last 12 months. The Government called a general election. I admit I did hope to be speaking from the Benches opposite today, but the British public, in their wisdom, took a different view.
The Labour Party in its manifesto promised a free vote in this Parliament. I welcome the opportunity to debate the issue again in your Lordships' House. It is an issue not just about hunting, but about individual civil liberties and tolerance in a democratic society.
I should like to make clear what my beliefs are. I remind your Lordships that I speak for myself and not for my party. I support hunting; I hunt. I have to
say to the noble Lord, Lord Weatherill, that I bought my hunt coat at his fine emporium. I shall shortly be taking it back for repair at the end of the season. Since the previous debate, the important issues which surround hunting have not changed. In that debate, my noble friend Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, a distinguished vet and a member of the Burns committee—I am delighted to see the noble Lord, Lord Burns, in his place—reminded the House that the Burns report did not state that hunting was cruel. Nor did the report recommend a ban.It used some words which have perhaps become candidates for the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations when it stated that hunting "seriously compromises" the welfare of the fox. The report went on to say that death will normally follow within a matter of seconds once a fox is caught. It also states that none of the legal methods of fox control is without difficulty.
When a farmer sends an animal to a slaughterhouse, it compromises its welfare. It is no different from netting a fish in the sea, catching a trout in a river, shooting a game bird or having lamb for lunch. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, that a compromise involving welfare has been made in all of those situations.
The important issue that must be addressed is whether the chase is intentionally cruel. Does it cause unnecessary suffering to the fox? Hunting is the pursuit of the quarry in its wild and natural state, a quarry that encounters nothing outside its natural repertoire of defences. The hounds do not put the fox under stress except only in the final moments.
I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, that if hunting could be shown to cause unnecessary suffering and the alternative methods of control less suffering, the argument for a ban would have some merit. But, as the noble Lord, Lord Donoughue, said, the Burns report does not make that case. To be fair, the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, acknowledges the point but does not agree it. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, conveniently always ignores the point when pressed on it.
Even the Scottish Parliament, in its somewhat bizarre and I believe unworkable Act, accepts that the chase does not cause unnecessary suffering. In the future in Scotland, it will be legal to hunt a fox with a pack of hounds provided that an attempt is made to shoot it at the end of the chase. The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, and my noble friend the Duke of Montrose pointed out that the Scottish Parliament rejected all the recommendations from its own rural affairs committee and produced an Act which had nothing to do with the welfare of the fox but seemed to be more an attack on those who followed hounds on horse.
I turn to the veterinary profession. As we have heard, the majority of vets are quite clear that a ban on hunting would represent a serious threat to the welfare of the fox population. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford reminded the House that, sad as it may be to some, foxes do not live to a happy old age in semi-retirement. They have no upper house to depart to. Sadly, they die of disease, or are run over on
the roads, or die of starvation—a threat which does not often face your Lordships. Would the fox population be better off if there were no hunting? It is clear that the fox would gain nothing from the abolition of hunting.Moving, if I may, from vets to vicars, I trust that your Lordships have read the letter from "Clergy in Field Sports". It is clear to me that there is no moral or spiritual case for banning hunting. The speeches in the debate last year by the four right reverend Prelates all put the case better than I can and they all voted against a ban. Today, we have heard from the right reverend Prelates the Bishops of Hereford, Portsmouth and Chelmsford, who once again gave us their guidance, both spiritual and moral, on hunting and spoke out against a ban.
We have a history of tolerance in this country. We accept different religious beliefs and different customs. Some in this country disapprove of the religious slaughter of animals but it does not follow that that practice, central to the life of Jews and Muslims, should be banned. Equally, some in the country violently campaign against animal experiments. But Parliament has accepted the need for humanely conducted research using animals, subject to proper regulation. Some in this country protest violently against hunting. Indeed, it is sad to see how some organisations have been taken over by those promoting animal rights rather than animal welfare, using threats, intimidation and violence to achieve their aims.
The English countryside is a common possession. All of us benefit from the richness and diversity of our countryside. It is largely man-made and tended by those who live in and care for it. It is our common inheritance. Indeed, it occupies a favourite place in every English person's image of their homeland. It is criss-crossed by footpaths, bridleways and byways. In many different ways, we all have a responsibility for it if we use and enjoy the countryside.
Many who live in the countryside have had a tough time during the past year. As we have heard from many noble Lords, farmers' incomes are as low as they have ever been. The countryside was closed to all during the terrible epidemic of foot and mouth disease. Rural businesses suffered, tourism declined, fuel duty increased, country people felt under threat. The last thing we need now is another crisis and greater rural unemployment.
I do not want another crisis in the countryside. When we last voted, many noble Lords were nervous of the middle way proposals. They asked: why regulate something that is working well and smother it with red tape? I voted against the middle way last year. But, like the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, I have changed my mind. I will vote against a ban; I will vote for the middle way; and I will abstain on the third motion, self-regulation, providing the middle way vote is carried.
I should like to explain the reasons why I have changed my mind—apart, of course, from hearing the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Golding, who
always convinces many of your Lordships when she speaks in this House. The reason I have changed my mind is that, as a result of the dreadful time we have had with foot and mouth disease, for the past two months we have had licensed hunting in this country. Every hunt has been licensed under permit by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. Licensing has worked well.I should today like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and in particular his officials. His department has received much criticism in recent months, but the officials at the Reading DEFRA office could not have been more helpful. They had to deal with 22 local hunts, all of which received their licences efficiently and quickly. I thank them for that.
We have a unique opportunity today, even though last night another place voted for a ban. Because a significant number of Members from all parties in another place voted for the middle way, we have a chance to find a workable compromise. The time has come for compromise on all sides. I recognised that compromise will not satisfy those who want a ban. I recognise that my limited powers of persuasion will not change the mind of the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, but I also recognise, reading his entry in Dod's, that he is a member of the Worshipful Company Of Butchers.
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