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Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, perhaps I may explain that if I had had the opportunity of a motto, it would have been, "Make both ends meet".
Viscount Astor: My Lords, that is an interesting motto. In that case, the noble Lord will be interested to know that the NFU Wales reported that while hunting was banned because of foot and mouth disease in Wales, farmers who normally lost five or six lambs to foxes saw the number jump to 40 or 50. That shows how important hunting is in those upland areas.
Even if I cannot persuade the noble Lord, Lord Graham, opinions can be changed. My noble friends Lord Willoughby de Broke and Lord Vinson described how no less than four senior executives of the League Against Cruel Sports left that organisation, concluding that a hunting ban would be bad for animal welfare. Some noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Harrison and Lord Fyfe of Fairfield, promote a ban and offer the alternative of drag hunting. Drag hunting is not an alternative. No drag hunt could ever take the risk that, should the hounds cross the line of a fox or hare and decide that that was a more interesting scent, it would be breaking the law. It would not be possible, day to day, to take out packs of hounds for drag hunting.
Licensed hunting—the middle way—will not allay the concerns of those who support hunting and see the possibility that a Bill could be hijacked by wrecking amendments in another place. Nor will it allay the concerns echoed by my noble friends, Lord Boardman and Lord Peel, that a Bill with licensing could impose so many conditions that hunting would be practically impossible in most parts of the country. Those are serious issues that we would face if a Bill were to be
introduced. If a Bill contained conditions that made hunting impossible in most parts of England, we should throw it out.I believe that licensed hunting has a future. It could enable the public to have confidence that hunting was properly conducted and regulated. I hope to persuade those on both sides of the argument that we have the opportunity to take conflict out of the countryside and create a future in which the Animal Liberation Front will no longer have an excuse to threaten Members of Parliament. We have heard that the Government face more important issues. However, they have shown a willingness to listen to all sides of the argument and seek a solution. I commend that.
In some ways, I had rather a deprived childhood. I was not brought up wearing a CND badge, so I never had the opportunity to march regularly, as many noble Lords opposite have done. I must admit that I rather enjoyed the Countryside rally and march. I have done that now, and I hope that we will not need to march again. However, we will march again, if necessary, and in greater numbers, to make sure that our voices are heard.
This is a free vote. We have the opportunity today to send the message that this House can take a sensible view, balancing civil liberties and individual freedom with sensible and reasonable legislation. We are a revising Chamber, and we have the right—the duty—to ask another place to think again, if we wish. I hope that noble Lords who voted for a ban last time will now seriously consider voting for the middle way. They would show that they understand that there should be a difference between disapproving of something and wanting to ban it. They would be showing tolerance and voting to prevent strife and division. They would be demonstrating respect for the countryside. They would be voting, as I hope, to take conflict out of the political issues in the countryside.
5.53 p.m.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I hope not to take up too much of your Lordships' time. I said that I was here as a facilitator, rather than an advocate, but one or two matters have provoked me to make a few remarks on the debate.
It has been a more interesting debate than I had anticipated. It has been remarkable that, although many noble Lords made more or less the same speech as they made last time—and revealed more or less the same commitments and prejudices—we have ended up with an entirely different conclusion. I would hope to see that in a benign way. I hope that, at last, a majority of Members who would otherwise go to the last ditch to defend hunting as it is, recognise that that is no longer a tenable position, that there is a different view among the great British public than is held by most Members of this House and that a consistent majority in a democratically elected House—
Lord Whitty: My Lords, some are still in denial, but no position in favour of carrying on hunting as it is—as opposed to making some change—can be defended.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, the recent national poll clearly showed that more people than ever before support the continuation of hunting. Recent polls do not confirm the Minister's comments.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, none of the polls that I have seen support the status quo. A vast swathe of those who have defended hunting today defended the status quo in the previous debate. Many have shifted to what is known as the middle way. I hope that, by doing so, they have recognised public opinion and the importance of at least taking strong note in this House of the repeated view of the democratically elected Chamber.
Therefore, compared with the position two or three weeks ago, we have an unexpectedly large amount of support for what is being called the middle way. One might almost call it a mass conversion. The trouble with mass conversions—as I am sure those on the Bishops' Bench will confirm, with their knowledge of ecclesiastical history—is that some converts are more convincing than others. There is a range in what people think the middle way might be and what it might deliver. In order to avoid provoking anyone on the Opposition Benches, I shall mention just two of my own colleagues.
The speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Golding, has been rightly acclaimed by many noble Lords. In a very consistent piece of advocacy, she effectively said that the third way would be similar to acquiring a fishing licence. Although conditions are attached to a fishing licence, they are, in season and within reason, reasonably easily met. My noble friend Lord Plant, however, if I understood him rightly, said that, to justify hunting along the lines of the middle way, one would have effectively to prove that it is important for pest control. Getting through that particular eye of the needle involves a much tighter passage, particularly since, as has been pointed out by my noble friend Lord Hoyle, very little control of pests and foxes is achieved by hunting with hounds.
Many inconsistencies have emerged in this debate, and much of the emotion and difficulty in reaching understanding between the points of view remains. There has also been some disingenuousness about the nature of cruelty. The fact that other practices may be cruel is not necessarily a reason for maintaining cruelty in this sphere—particularly when the cruelty in many of the examples given is a by-product of the main objective, whereas in fox hunting much of the cruelty emerges from the motivation for and the exhilaration of the chase. I believe that there is a difference that has to be addressed in one way or another.
I was particularly struck by another inconsistency. I wish that this same tolerance for activities that bring excitement and exhilaration to a significant minority of the population had been exhibited in our discussion a few years ago on Section 28. I think that, in respect of a number of Members of this House, there are minorities and minorities. I believe that we do have to respect the position of minorities. However, the position of the majority also must be taken into consideration.
The Government recognise that we have had a significant debate and that there has been significant movement. The Government will have to take account of that in their proposals on the next steps. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater, we do not have a fully developed alternative approach that we are about to present to a surprised nation. However, we shall take account both of this debate and of the discussions that my colleague Alun Michael has been having with the various interest groups involved in the issue, and make a statement on the next steps towards resolving the issue. As I said, we shall make the statement before Easter.
We shall not, however, take account of one set of issues which have been alluded to, albeit obliquely, by some noble Lords: the not very veiled threat of civil disobedience.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, no one in this debate has said anything about civil disobedience. What they have said is that there will be a demonstration, which is the right of all freeborn Englishmen. If the noble Lord cannot tell the difference between civil disobedience and the right to demonstrate, he should not be occupying the Government Front Bench.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, perhaps the noble Earl should read the text of some of his colleagues' pronouncements today.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, all right; he should not. He can remain in a state of ignorance if he wants to. His contributions often demonstrate that. I believe that noble Lords indicated that if we go down the road of a total ban, there would be illegal hunting and problems of law enforcement. A number of noble Lords referred to that. It has been referred to outside this House and obliquely within it. I am not referring to the right to demonstrate. Half a million, a quarter of a million or a million people on the streets does not alter whether an issue is right or wrong.
The Government will have to take a decision in the light of all arguments; of what is felt in the countryside and by the population as a whole and of what is legally possible and legally appropriate. We shall take all those matters into account.
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