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Lord Whitty: My Lords, I can assure the House that no Bill exists; nor does even the outline of such a Bill exist. However, all of these issues have been fairly well aired, and, in the light of the contrary decisions of the two Houses, they have been discussed widely in political and journalistic circles. I assure the House that there has been no decision on the nature of the Bill pending the consultation, and there has been no spelling out to journalists or anybody else what the nature of that Bill will be. My Statement today clearly indicated the process. Also, it is stating the obvious to say that we know where the House of Commons stands and we know what will be required to meet many of the present concerns in the House of Commons. We have a consultation period to undergo, during which we can perhaps establish more common ground on which a further Bill could be based. In any case, the position taken by the other place the other night would need to be translated into legislative terms and there are different ways of doing that.
So, in relation to belligerence, I am afraid that I have to make it clear to Members of this House that, at the end of the day, their votes cannot be added to those of the House of Commons and, if the normal process fails, the will of the House of Commons will prevail.
Lord Hoyle: My Lords, I welcome the early response from the Government. I also welcome the fact that, if a real debate does not take place, the Parliament Act will be used and the fact that due weight will be given to the views of the elected House. I hope that the spirit of libertarianism that was shown in the House the other day continues for a long time.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I accept the welcome from my noble friend. There will be different interpretations of precisely what he meant by his last sentence. No doubt, he will enlighten us.
Lord King of Bridgwater: My Lords, the Minister rightly said that it could not be guaranteed that the votes of this House would be counted equal to those of the House of Commons. However, he gave the House a pledge on behalf of his colleague, Mr Alun Michael—who, as he said, is in charge of the matter—
that the views expressed in this House would be carefully considered before any decisions were taken. I am sure that the Minister gave that pledge in good faith, but it has been dishonoured by the Statement.There is no secret about it. Anyone who has been around for any time in government or Parliament knows what the Statement means. The views of the House have not been taken into account, and that is the worst possible prelude. The Minister pleads for understanding, co-operation and proper consultation, when the first process of consultation—a proper debate in this House and a proper moment for the assessment of our views—has been so manifestly dishonoured.
The Statement was fairly opaque in places. On the second page, there are clear assurances about timing and outcome and that there will be engagement with those campaigning for a ban on hunting, Members of the House of Commons, Members of this House, and those involved in land management. There is no indication that there will be any engagement with those who happen to regard the policy—if the newspaper reports of it are accurate—as a disaster for many parts of the country. They would expect to be fully engaged in the process.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, my right honourable friend made it clear that he would engage with all sides of the argument. The Statement refers to Members of the House of Commons and the view that they took. It was, after all, a Statement to the House of Commons, which has made its views clear, and the Minister is responsible to that House. It also said explicitly in the Statement that he would take into account views that had already been expressed here in the debate and views that might be expressed during the six-month period.
The Statement is not opaque. At least, it is no more opaque than many government Statements. It is fairly clear that the process of consultation will take place; that there will be an assessment of the views that are put to Alun Michael during that period; and that the Bill will be drafted in the light of those opinions. It is a political reality that the House of Commons has made its view clear, as of now. It is also clear that there will now be a period of reflection and consultation, before we produce the legislation. When we produce the legislation, it will go through the normal process. I hope that we can establish other principles and bases for that legislation. The only thing that is spelt out—it is blindingly obvious, not opaque—is that, at the end of the day, we think that the issue has gone on for too long and the Parliament Act might be invoked.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, I shall take up the point made by—I was going to say, "my old friend", but that is not appropriate in this House—my old sparring partner, the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle. Up to now, this has been a matter for a free vote, here and in another place. That was true of the previous Bill, in which there were three options. People were able to vote for what they wanted. It has also been true of the debates in this Parliament.
Are the Government saying that they will introduce a government Bill that will represent their settled view, after the six months' consultation, and that they will do what they usually do with government Bills and apply the Whip, in this House and in another place? If that is not the case, what guarantee is there that the Bill that arrives in this House from another place will be the Government's Bill?
Lord Whitty: My Lords, contrary to what the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, suggests, we have made it explicit that, although the Government will produce the Bill, it will be the subject of a free vote in both Houses, as was the Private Member's Bill and as were the Motions debated this week. The principle of a free vote throughout Parliament still applies: Whips will not be applied on this side of the House or, I suspect, in other parties.
I hope that that clarifies the situation. Of course, the Bill that arrives here will be the House of Commons' Bill, which may not be the same as the original government Bill. That is stating the obvious.
Lord Donoughue: My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on the Minister's decision to have a period of reflection, rather than follow the line of a "virtual ban", which was apparently briefed overnight from somewhere to the newspapers. That is a positive move.
Following up what was said on the Benches opposite, I ask the Minister for a positive assurance that the final Bill, which will include the Government's decisions, will, in the search for common ground—a crucial part of the process and a good objective—include not only the views of this House as part of Parliament but those of the people in the countryside who will be most affected by a virtual ban, should the Government pursue that policy.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I cannot predict the extent of support for the common ground that will emerge from the process. All I am saying is that it will be the objective of my right honourable friend to seek what common ground there is, before producing a Bill.
Lord Elton: My Lords, the Government have accepted the principle that foxes must be controlled and seek to implement the principle that unnecessary cruelty should not be inflicted, with which one cannot quarrel. Can the Minister give an undertaking that no law will be passed that substitutes a more cruel or equally cruel method of control than fox hunting?
The Government said that they,
- "could not properly stand in the way of the application of the Parliament Act",
Lord Whitty: My Lords, as I said, the Bill will go through the normal process. If improvements are
introduced in this House during that process and they are acceptable to the House of Commons, they will be accepted in the Bill. However, were there still to be deadlock, the situation that I described in relation to the Parliament Act would apply. If the question is whether it is worth while for this House to scrutinise and attempt to improve the Bill, the answer is that it is. That is part of the process of trying to reach as much common ground as we can through parliamentary and other processes.I am not sure that I can give the noble Lord, Lord Elton, a straight answer to his first question. After all, as my noble friend Lord Hoyle and others said, only about six per cent of the control of foxes is through hunting with hounds. There are subjective arguments about whether that is more or less cruel than other forms of controlling foxes. The question is whether that six per cent should continue to exist, be reduced or eliminated. The balance may well depend on the exact outcome and the exact law. I cannot give a clear assurance on that either way.
Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, my noble friend will be aware that some of us who are opposed to hunting are nevertheless concerned about the impact of a ban on the foot and fell packs in some of Britain's national parks. I refer in particular to the Lake District National Park where special conditions exist, most especially in the area of lambing. Can my noble friend give an assurance that during the course of the consultation, adequate regard will be given to those difficulties?
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