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Lord Taverne: My Lords, does the Minister agree that, although there is no reason to suspect a link between the measles vaccine and autism, what is absolutely clear is that it will not make a hoot of difference whether three vaccinations are given at one time or they are given separately? Is it not the case that the immune system of babies is perfectly capable of dealing with a thousand vaccines at one time; and is not the campaign for separate vaccines the most illogical of all the campaigns against this matter?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with the noble Lord's point. If we go back to the arguments that Dr Wakefield has used, he is suggesting that there should be a year's gap between each of the injections. That would take a five-year timetable in order to give the six vaccinations that would be necessary as compared to the MMR, where two vaccinations are needed: the first between 12 and 15 months, and the second some three years later. In addition, if single vaccines are used, there is absolutely no guarantee that children will have all six vaccinations.
Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, is it not equally important to draw the attention of the public, and particularly of mothers, to the dangers of not vaccinating? Should not the evidence now available from the German town of Coburg—where a large number of mothers were persuaded not to have their children vaccinated, and where there is now a very serious outbreak of measles—be brought to the attention of the public?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, that is an important suggestion. It is clear, if one looks back over the past 20 years or so to 1980, that there were nearly 140,000 notifications of measles and 26 deaths; by 2001, the number of notifications had been reduced to 5,773 and the number of deaths was down to one. I have no doubt whatever that the introduction of the MMR vaccine has proved to be highly effective in this country.
Lord Winston: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that all the professionals concerned in this matter are totally supportive of the way in which the Government have handled the issue? Does he further agree that the root of the problem lies in the rather irresponsible reporting of what is clearly anecdotal evidence which has given rise to alarm? Is not the base of the problem the difficulty of educating the public in the notion of risk and the need to focus on this in the future, so that we can prevent this kind of thing happening again?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, there is much in what my noble friend has to say. That is why the public information programme that the department is now developing is focused on providing information for parents, through NHS Direct and other mechanisms, about the scientific evaluation that has been undertaken so that they can make an informed decision. It is worthy of note that the recommendations on MMR that we have received have been supported by the WHO, the BMA, the Royal College of General Practitioners, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, the Royal College of Nursing and the Community Practitioners and Health Visitors Association.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I am the eighth of nine children, all of whom had measles. Why has measles become such a serious disease? Has the virus mutated? In my childhood, it was a normal disease that most children expected to get.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I have heard that theory put forward, but there has always been a high cost to some members of the community who catch measles. I quoted the figure of 26 deaths in 1980 compared with today's figures. That shows beyond any doubt as far as I am concerned that the introduction of MMR was one of the most effective public health measures that has been undertaken in this country. I have no doubt that it was the right decision at the time and that we are right to support MMR now.
Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, can the Minister bring us up to date on uptake figures for the MMR vaccine? I understand that there is a considerable difference between urban areas and country areas, with the country areas doing much better. Does that not show that countrymen have a lot more sense than urbanites?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: Not exactly, my Lords. I do not think that the figures quite support
that interesting supposition. The noble Lord is certainly right to suggest that the uptake figures give cause for concern. The latest figures that we have, for 1999-2000, show an 88 per cent uptake. We need to get up to the middle 90s to have what is described as herd immunity. There are enormous variations. The figures for London are particularly worrying, with some of the London boroughs down to the 60 per cent mark. However, there are also urban areas with very high figures. Barnsley, which is not entirely a rural community, has 94.9 per cent coverage.
Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, I have a personal interest to declare in that my daughter-in-law is going to have a baby on 24th July, which will make me a grandmother. She asked me whether I think that she should have the triple vaccine. When I was a little girl, my mother used to send me out to play with children who had measles so that I would catch it and get it over and done with while I was very young. Now I believe that the triple vaccine is a wonderful thing and has advanced us enormously. My daughter-in-law wants to know whom she should ask to get an authoritative opinion on whether it will be the right thing for her.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I very much recommend that she asks her general practitioner. She may also contact NHS Direct, which will also be able to give informed advice.
Nuclear Weapons
2.53 p.m.
Lord Jenkins of Putney asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they will move in the United Nations or the Security Council for the globally enforced abolition of nuclear weapons.
Lord Grocott: My Lords, the Government have made it clear that we are committed to the ultimate goal of verifiable global nuclear disarmament. We continue to press for mutual, balanced and verifiable reductions in the numbers of nuclear weapons worldwide. When we are satisfied that sufficient progress has been made to allow us to include British nuclear weapons in multilateral negotiations without endangering our security interests, we shall do so.
Lord Jenkins of Putney: My Lords, my noble friend has given the affirmative Answer that I hoped for. As he says, the Government have long been committed to the idea of getting rid of nuclear weapons. Is not the time now right to follow the suggestion of the International Court of Justice to initiate discussions in the United Nations with a view to committing all the nations concerned to nuclear disarmament?
Lord Grocott: My Lords, I know of my noble friend's long-standing interest in this matter. We are currently preparing for the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty preparatory committee, which will be held in
New York from 8th to 19th April. That treaty is very much the cornerstone of the Government's policy and has been for a number of governments. My noble friend will acknowledge that the goal will not be achieved overnight or by means of resolutions; it will be achieved by a long and sometimes arduous process of small steps. That is what the Government have been doing. He will know from the letter that he received from my noble friend Lady Symons following his previous Question on the subject that the Government have taken a substantial number of steps. A copy of that letter has been placed in the Library.
Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, does the Minister agree that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, does the House a great service by his persistence in raising this vital issue? Does he also agree that in this age of suicide bombers and rogue states, with the non-proliferation doctrine under severe pressure and with huge leaps in technology in anti-missile defence, the entire doctrine of mutual nuclear deterrence has now reached a crossroads? Does he further agree that your Lordships' House is an ideal place in which to debate the issue thoroughly and put the new choices before the British public? Will the Minister press his noble and learned friend the Leader of the House, the usual channels or whoever needs to be pressed to get us debating that as soon as possible after Easter?
Lord Grocott: My Lords, the noble Lord knows that it is beyond my competence to deliver the precise agenda for the House. I very much agree that this House is extremely good at having extended debates on such issues. We had a very good debate last night on international terrorism, with particular reference to Afghanistan. Yes, the world has changed since September 11th and we need to be constantly vigilant in assessing the situation post that date.
Lord Archer of Sandwell: My Lords, while we await that debate with some anxiety, will my noble friend confirm that the non-proliferation treaty rests on an undertaking by the nuclear powers to negotiate in good faith to bring about the end of nuclear weapons? Does he agree that that undertaking has not been honoured and that we might find that the non-nuclear powers will wonder whether this is perhaps a one-sided arrangement? Is not the time to save the world while there is still a world to save?
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