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The Lord Bishop of Hereford: My Lords, also, a more useful way could have been found to spend parliamentary time on 11th April.
I hope and pray that the Government—who showed such an ability to listen, such reasonableness and flexibility over the Countryside and Rights of Way Bill—may yet see sense and that your Lordships will agree with the noble Lord's admirable Motion. If I am in "Dad's Army", I am a mere private. I defer to my commanding
officer—although I do not think that the noble Lord bears much resemblance to the gallant captain with whom most of your Lordships will be familiar.3.42 p.m.
Earl Peel: My Lords, as always it is a great privilege to follow the right reverend Prelate, who very much reflected—as he did on Second Reading—the opinions of the House. I too support the Motion moved by the noble Lord, Lord Moran, which reflects not only the feeling in this House but, perhaps more importantly, in the countryside at large.
In addition to the two reports—and, for heaven's sake, it must be sensible to await their outcome—a report has been instigated by the European Parliament. Presumably all three reports will result in recommendations that will demand further legislation. I am surprised that the Government Chief Whip has not intervened because the amount of parliamentary time required as a consequence of those three sets of recommendations will be considerable—over and above the three days in Committee allocated to the Bill.
The Minister argues that he needs the additional powers in the Bill to cope effectively with foot and mouth, yet the Government's own submission to the Anderson committee acknowledged that many mistakes were made during the sad outbreak that we all witnessed and that the powers afforded to the Government in the 1981 Act were not used as effectively as they could have been. The Bill seems to offer very little above what is already available to the Government under the 1981 Act, yet the damage that it will do in terms of its heavy handedness and confrontation with those who suffered so much over the past year is completely out of all proportion.
There is one further point that I would like to raise with the Minister, and I did so on Second Reading; namely, the question of Scotland. I totally fail to understand why the Scottish Parliament does not appear to think that there is a need to rush through legislation. The chances of an outbreak north of the Border must be similar to England or Wales—at least in proportion to the number of livestock in either country. Yet the Minister stated in a Written Answer to me:
- "I understand that Scottish Ministers hope to issue a consultation on proposed legislation shortly".—[Official Report, 28/1/2002; col. WA9.]
3.47 p.m.
Baroness Hayman: My Lords, I had no intention of intervening and do so only in response to the speeches of the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, and the noble Baroness,
Lady Strange. I particularly want to pick up on one phrase used by the noble Baroness—"mindless murderers"—in referring to MAFF staff carrying out policies that are the responsibility of Ministers and the Government. The noble Lord, Lord Peyton, was his usual excoriating self about MAFF officials and their behaviour.Ministers and ex-Ministers have plenty of opportunities to defend themselves and to debate and change policy. I would be the last person to suggest that we should not learn from last year's outbreak or that we should not debate vaccination as against slaughter. I remind the House that when MAFF officials coped with last year's epidemic, together with many vets from abroad and in private practice, they did so without the opportunity to change policy.
The right reverend Prelate reminded us that officials were urged to implement a slaughter policy as swiftly as possible, to curtail the spread of infection. That policy was part of the contingency plans of successive governments, in conjunction with farming interests across the whole of Europe, for many years. That does not mean that slaughter must be the policy for the future and should not be revised. However, we should be careful about criticising officials—I say this in relation to the noble Baroness, whom I count as a friend—and using intemperate language, when those officials were carrying out policies that had been endorsed across the board.
3.49 p.m.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, it is with a heavy heart that I support my noble friend Lord Moran. I express my gratitude to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford for so adequately articulating the feelings of the rural and farming community. A friend of mine rang me on Sunday night to say, "I hope that you are taking part in debate on the Bill. Can you kindly tell the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, that I am incandescent with rage about it?". I am not incandescent but I am disturbed about the content of the Bill.
The Minister said that it is his Bill and that he wants to see it through. On behalf of the Government, he asks us to extend permission for them to perform contiguous culls in future. The Government's figures show that not a single one of the 3,305 farms that lost their animals under the contiguous cull tested positive for the virus. Of 3,873 farms slaughtered out as dangerous contacts, only one tested positive.
At Second Reading, the Minister said of the Thirsk outbreak:
- "Luckily, the disease did not spread any further south east, although in other directions the spread did not stop. That was due to luck, although good organisation and the support of the bulk of the farming community also played a major role. In the end, given the delay in the contiguous cull, it was probably luck that stopped the disease from spreading further".—[Official Report, 14/1/02; col. 837.]
Of the Brecon Beacons, the Minister said:
- "the situation in the Brecon Beacons, where there was a dangerous and rapid spread in the hills, is also instructive. There, the additional policy of contiguous heft culling proved to be essential to stop further spread of the disease".—[Official Report, 14/1/02; col. 839.]
I am not in the least happy about the Bill; it is based on false science. We should get our language right. Culling means thinning; we were mass slaughtering animals. This was not an outbreak of foot and mouth disease; it was an epidemic. While I am at it, the Minister also said:
- "after months of devastation from the biggest epidemic of foot and mouth disease in any country since records began".—[Official Report, 14/1/02; col. 835.]
3.52 p.m.
Lord Monro of Langholm: My Lords, I warmly support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Moran, in his excellent speech. In a moment, I should like to expand a little on what my noble friend Lord Peel said about Scotland.
I find it hard to understand why the Government are proceeding with the Bill. They announced it with a great fanfare of trumpets and urgency way back in the autumn, when the Bill received its Second Reading in another place. Proceedings were so urgent that they were guillotined; many amendments were not discussed and none was accepted. So there was not much consultation with Members in another place. Then the Bill came to this House in mid-January. One would think that there would be great urgency again, but no. Today it is two-and-a-half months since Second Reading. Presumably, urgency has dropped from the Government's mind.
That additional point supports the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Moran, that we should delay proceedings until we receive the results of the inquiries—not only those being undertaken in England but the important study being carried out by the Royal Society in Edinburgh to the highest scientific standard. We could then put together a Bill of practical use within about 12 months.
A year ago, many of us called for a public inquiry and continued to do so all through last summer and autumn. Eventually, the Government refused to hold one and went ahead with their own separate inquiries with the obvious intention of minimising the criticism that they were bound to receive for their handling of the whole affair.
I want to press the Government hard on their relationship with Scotland over the Bill. The epicentre of the outbreak spread from Northumberland to Longtown in northern Cumberland—no more than 10 miles from my farm as the crow flies. I lost all my sheep in the contiguous cull. Easter Sunday last year was the worst day of my farming life, when the sheep were all killed and the lambs with them.
It is ridiculous that we are legislating for a disease that is fluid and moves about quickly, yet there will be different legislation in Scotland, a few miles away. The Scottish Parliament shows no sign of urgency to follow with legislation on the lines of the Bill. That may be because, by and large, the authorities in Scotland—not only the Executive but local councils and especially the Army—carried out their job efficiently and well. Later, I shall talk about some of those procedures under amendments to the Bill in Committee and later stages.
It is impossible to divide the United Kingdom in legislation on animal disease, which hops about all over the place across the Border, one way or another. We cannot have two separate sets of legislation, compensation and a whole host of different procedures either side of the Border. Another outbreak may be right on the Border, as was the last one.
I urge the Minister to think carefully about what the noble Lord, Lord Moran, and other noble Lords have said and to postpone the Bill until we receive the results of the inquiries. We can then draft an effective Bill to cover the whole of the United Kingdom—jointly with the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly—so that we have a United Kingdom attack on the disease and, most importantly, a United Kingdom attack on imports, which are the root of the problem and about which the Government seem to do little at present.
We heard what happens in New Zealand. A few weeks ago, I was in America. On return to this country, absolutely nothing was said about agriculture or animal husbandry, whereas if one goes to America, one has to sign forms about where one has been and whether one has been on a farm. We do not seem to be taking such import controls seriously. Even in answer to a Question this week, the Minister said that things are developing. Why cannot they develop quicker than the Bill?
We really must wait until the detailed inquiries report to the country. We can then put together a Bill that we can be proud of.
3.59 p.m.
Viscount Bledisloe: My Lords, I had not intended to speak to the amendment because, while I fully agree with many of the sentiments expressed by those in favour of it, I thought that there might be advantage in seeing whether we can improve the Bill in Committee. My intention to remain silent was altered by the powerful speech made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. It is admirable that she should come forth to defend so powerfully officials of the ministry
of which she was such an industrious and popular Minister. But surely, what she said demonstrated conclusively that we need to know what happened.The noble Baroness told us that the officials did their job, and that, if things went wrong, it was because they had been given the wrong policy. There is no doubt that, in the country at large, MAFF—or DEFRA, or government or whatever we choose to call it—has lost its credibility with those on the farm. If the noble Baroness is right to say that that is because there was disorder and chaos at the top and that the officials and the people on the ground were commendable, sensible, hard-working people, we can work on that basis in deciding what is needed. If, on the other hand, contrary to the noble Baroness's plucky and admirable defence, the officials were, in fact, clots who were making a mess of it, we need other legislation. Until the inquiries have told us about such things, how on earth can we know what is needed?
I am afraid that the noble Baroness has, perhaps unintentionally, converted me to the theory that the Motion is right, although I entirely accept, like her, that until we know, we should not be abusive about individuals.
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