| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Baroness Hayman: My Lords, I want to clarify what I said for the noble Viscount. I did not say that we should not take action until we knew. Nor did I suggest, in anything that I said, that there was chaos at the top. What I said, though perhaps not explicitly, was that the House had a rather short memory about how effusive it was in its praise of officials during the action and that we might well wish to review policy as the whole of Europe has done. In Australia they have torn up their contingency plan and want to think again, because of the scale of the epidemic that we encountered.
It is right that we consider policy. All that I was suggesting was that, if officials were implementing a policy that was accepted, agreed and unchallenged before the epidemic, it would be wrong to castigate those officials in the terms that were used in the debate.
Viscount Bledisloe: My Lords, I fully accept that the noble Baroness did not say that that was a reason for postponement. I merely said that it seemed that the inevitable conclusion of what she was saying was that we needed to know what went wrong before we tried to produce a solution.
4.3 p.m.
Lord Beaumont of Whitley: My Lords, I shall intervene in this singles match to support the Motion tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moran.
There can be no doubt that major errors were made during the outbreak of foot and mouth disease. No one is likely to contradict that. If it were not so, why would there be three inquiries, as well as the European one, which will probably be almost as important as our own. My friend the MEP for the South East, Caroline Lucas, has been selected to be vice-chairman of that inquiry, and I have no doubt that it will be conducted with extreme rigour.
The history of MAFF in the past few months—if not longer—is a sad one. As noble Lords know, many highly competent civil servants did their best, but, largely, they got it wrong. They got it wrong in all sorts of ways, including their approach to dealing with the disease and in their dealings with farmers. MAFF and the Treasury, between them, have reduced our farmers to a level of subsistence that is about half that of any of their colleagues in Europe. That takes some doing.
We should not follow the suggestion that has been made by my former friends in front of me that we should embark on the Committee stage and see what happens. It would be better to wait until the various reports came in. For that reason, I hope that your Lordships will vote for the Motion tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Moran, and that he will put it to the vote.
4.4 p.m.
Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, we should be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Moran, for giving the House the opportunity to defer discussion on the Bill. We should be grateful for several reasons. It gives the Government the opportunity to think again and gives people generally the opportunity to give their views, which they have not been able to do so far. The noble Lord's Motion refers to two reports. It is essential that we should receive those reports before we proceed with the Bill. The Government, the Liberals and—I believe—the Conservatives believe in pre-legislative hearings.
If there were ever a case in which a Bill should have a pre-legislative hearing, this is it. The Bill damages so many people and involves the entry by the Government into people's property and allows them to destroy that property at will. Ordinary people everywhere will understand that and deplore it. As there is no urgency, the passage of the Bill ought to be suspended while a pre-legislative hearing goes ahead.
It is not only people in the country who are concerned about what went on during the outbreak of foot and mouth disease. Millions of people throughout the country were appalled at the destruction not only of diseased animals but of animals which were perfectly fit and well and were destroyed in a manner such as people had never contemplated or seen before. The general public must be satisfied that any legislation will take into consideration all aspects of an outbreak—not only foot and mouth disease, but BSE and others—to ensure that, if the Government have to deal with such an outbreak, they do so in the best, most humane way, with regard both to people and animals.
Recently, we heard about the Government's policy on fox hunting. I am bound to make a comparison. During the foot and mouth outbreak, the Government destroyed 9 million animals—mostly fit ones—by dubious and cruel means. It would take 300 years to destroy that number of foxes by hunting. I hope that that point will be taken on board.
I support the noble Lord's Motion, and I hope that the House will do so too. It would help farming, people in the countryside and, indeed, the
Government. It would show that we had a concerned, humane, listening Government who were prepared to listen and delay such draconian legislation.4.9 p.m.
Lord Jopling: My Lords, the speech that we have just heard from the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, was an extraordinarily important one. I join those who congratulated the noble Lord, Lord Moran, on tabling the Motion. The speech that we have just heard made it clear that the sentiments behind the Motion are held in all parts of the House. The Chief Whip is here. I hope that the Government will take on board the fact that the mood of the House is overwhelmingly in favour of the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moran.
A little earlier we listened again to a quite outstanding speech from the right reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Hereford, which I hope the Government will reflect on very carefully indeed. I believe that the noble Lord's amendment is particularly justified at this stage of the Bill's proceedings. The Government come to your Lordships' House now looking a great deal more hapless and foolish than they looked when we had the Second Reading over 10 weeks ago. At that time the Government were still telling us that the Bill, as my noble friend Lord Monro of Langholm, said, came from another place with a tag of urgency attached to it with a background, as the noble Lord said, of a guillotine in the other place.
But what do the Government do after your Lordships dismembered the Bill at Second Reading? What do they do with this urgent Bill? They wait over 10 weeks before they start the Committee stage. It is no good them saying, "Oh, parliamentary time"—I have used that argument in another place on many occasions—"did not allow us to proceed". If the Government really felt that this Bill was urgent, they could have perfectly well dealt with the Committee stage in that ridiculous half-term holiday which we had a few weeks ago.
Until this moment, when we were told that we were going to have the Committee stage starting now, I thought the delay was because the Government had paid attention to the way in which your Lordships' House dismembered the Bill on 14th January. But what do we find? No way was that in their minds; they wanted to press on with this most unfortunate Bill.
It seems to me that what has happened is that the Government now have the worst of both worlds. They can no longer argue that the Bill is urgent because they wasted 10 weeks in allowing it just to lie on the table, but they are still mindlessly pressing on with it against the view widely held across the House that it is unnecessary and premature.
When the Minister replies, he has to answer two questions above all. First, what has been the reason for the 10-week delay? Why could we not have dealt with the Bill earlier if it is urgent? Secondly, if it is not urgent, why go on with it now when there are inquiries waiting to report? The Government cannot have it both ways. It seems to me that the Government have the worst of both worlds over this matter.
About a year ago I was one of the first to ask for a broad public inquiry on similar lines to the Northumberland committee of 1967. I was in the House of Commons at that time. I remember it vividly. At that time I said that I thought a public inquiry should start at once. My noble friend Lord Plumb was a member of the Northumberland committee. His distinction over matters of this sort as a former president of the European Parliament and of the National Farmers Union, confirm that his credentials to lead that committee were irrefutable. When I asked for an immediate start to the public inquiry it never occurred to me that there would not be one sooner or later. But I believed that it ought to start straightaway. I was totally astonished when the Government refused to have a similar inquiry to the one which Fred Peart set up when he was Minister for Agriculture all those years ago.
It occurs to me that if a Conservative Government had still been in power last year when this outbreak began and they had behaved in the same way as the current Government have behaved over setting up public inquiries, I could not envisage the extent of the howls which would have gone up from Opposition Members in this House and in another place. I am totally horrified by the way the Government have behaved over this matter. I believe that there has been incompetence from top to bottom in handling this recent outbreak.
As my noble friend Lord Ferrers rightly said, what is the point of setting up these inquiries and then embarking on legislation? It is the old case over which many of us castigated Labour governments in the past of the gentleman in Whitehall knowing best and ignoring inquiries and the experts on the ground who could give—and I hope they will still—advice as to how these things have come about and what ought to be done in future.
It seems that we are in the process of a great cover-up of government incompetence over the course of the last year. I hope that the House supports the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Moran.
4.17 p.m.
Lord Willoughby de Broke: My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Moran. Contrary to what the Minister said at Second Reading, he does not need the Bill. As the noble Countess, Lady Mar, said, the Government have already slaughtered millions of animals. It was not a cull, but a slaughter. If they have slaughtered 5 million animals that were not infected then the Minister cannot possibly need this Bill. He may want it, but he certainly does not need it.
At the leisurely pace at which this Bill has been proceeding, I have had time to make my own private inquiry in the absence of a public inquiry. My sister lives in Hatherleigh in Devon which, as noble Lords may know, was the centre of the disastrous outbreak of foot and mouth. She arranged a meeting for me there with local farmers as did the local Devon NFU which, I may say, differed considerably from the London branch in its attitude to this Bill.
The point which emerged most tellingly from both those meetings was the lack of local organisation and communication. Vets, the police and the Army all seemed to be uncertain of their role. Local vets were sidelined and put under the control of MAFF. The bureaucrats did not have the faintest idea of what was going on. That was the information that I received.
For example, the local auctioneer had not got a job because there were no cattle auctions at all. It is an old-established firm there. He put at the disposal of officials the services of his employees, their expertise, vehicles and maps and intimate knowledge of local farms, but they were turned down. There were large numbers of lorry drivers going down small Devon lanes laden with sleepers and coal, but going in the wrong direction and without maps. That is an example of the short-sightedness which should never have occurred.
Both the groups of farmers to whom I spoke for quite a long time on both occasions made the point that disease control operations must be handled at local level and not by remote control from London. At the end of our meetings I asked them all what they thought about the Animal Health Bill. They said unanimously that it should be held over until the Government's own inquiry had reported. That is the reaction that I received on the ground since our last debate at Second Reading.
While I was there I spoke with Professor Ian Mercer who chaired the Devon County Council inquiry into foot and mouth, which I believe is the only report which has been completed and published on the foot and mouth epidemic so far. As your Lordships know, his conclusions were pretty damning. However, it is worth quoting a few lines from his conclusion. He said:
- "The reports received by the Inquiry of insensitive and even belligerent operatives and bungled culls do little to enhance the professional reputation of those involved, from Ministers downwards . . . the evidence presented to us is overwhelmingly critical of the balance of effective need against unnecessary killing of healthy stock under the contiguous cull policy as carried out by MAFF".
What I saw and heard on my visit to Devon has been borne out by the evidence given to the two inquiries that the Government set up: the lessons learned inquiry and the Royal Society inquiry. That evidence is available on an excellent Internet site, which I recommend to noble Lords who may not be acquainted with it. It is www.warmwell.com. The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, said that the public and many people have not had their say. Many have had their say on that website. It makes extremely instructive reading. One can see many of the submissions made to the inquiries.
There are constants in the evidence presented by farmers and scientists, including Dr David Shannon, who until December 2001 was chief scientist at MAFF and DEFRA, the CLA, senior veterinary experts and
other organisations and individuals. The constants involved are that the so-called contingency plan was ineffective and outdated; the remoteness of the centralised bureaucracy in Page Street was divorced from the reality in the field; and that there was lack of effort to ensure that infectious diseases such as foot and mouth disease do not come into this country. The United States, Australia, New Zealand and Canada seem successfully to keep those diseases at bay. Why are we so slack when it comes to keeping out those diseases? If we cannot stop illegal imports, it seems utterly unrealistic to pretend that we can be a foot and mouth disease free country.The final constant is the Bill. The contiguous cull was not necessary. It must be stopped. It was a highly expensive disaster for animal and human welfare and did nothing to prevent the spread of the disease—rather to the contrary. Evidence I have seen indicates that the contiguous cull may have contributed to the spread of the disease through movements of vehicles and people from infected areas into contiguous cull areas. What it did very successfully was to kill 5 million uninfected animals and divert resources away from essential disease control efforts in infected areas.
The noble Countess, Lady Mar, mentioned the outbreak in the Brecon Beacons. I add my voice in asking this question. What is the evidence that the contiguous cull in the Brecon Beacons stopped the disease from spreading further? My information is that that was not the case. I shall be interested to hear evidence indicating that that action was successful. The noble Countess mentioned DEFRA's own figures. Of the 3,305 farms which were tested, one only was positive. DEFRA now seems to disagree with its own figures and has amended them. According to its most recent figures, there were 120 "positives" out of 2,960 contiguous culls. Perhaps in answer to a Written Question the Minister will explain the difference between the figures and state which figure is correct.
I conclude by quoting from the evidence presented by Dr Sheila Crispin to the lessons learned inquiry. She is an extremely experienced vet and reader in comparative ophthalmology at the University of Bristol. She says:
- "If one single improvement is to be achieved after all the Inquires it is that the culture of MAFF/DEFRA must change . . . they must realise, or be made to realise that their own inadequacies cannot be hidden beneath draconian and unscientific measures such as contiguous culling policies and the amendment to the Animal Health Act".
4.26 p.m.
Lord Chorley: My Lords, unfortunately, I was not able to take part in the Second Reading debate. If I have an interest to declare, it is that I live in Cumbria which was at the heart of the dreadful outbreak. I do not farm but I am acutely aware of the enormous
damage that the outbreak did to the tourism and recreational industries on which much of the economy of the Lake District, where I live, depended. As I believe the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, said in her Second Reading speech, I am well aware that if the foot and mouth disease were to break out again there the wide support which the tourist industry and recreational bodies gave to Her Majesty's Government last year would not be repeated. If this Bill were to become an Act of Parliament, it would not help.I rather sympathised with the Prime Minister when he decided against having a public inquiry because I believed that that would take years and we wanted good, quick post hoc investigations. The three inquiries were set up. We have had the Curry report on farming, a first-class report. I should have thought that we were not that far away from receiving the other two important reports. But apparently the Government cannot wait. They want draconian measures. They want measures which make criminals of ordinary people. Yet it is 10 weeks since the Second Reading debate.
The Second Reading debate demonstrated that the Bill was exceptionally controversial. The fact that we have spent an hour and 19 minutes on the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Moran, shows equally how controversial it still is. Yet apparently we cannot await the two reports. As the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, asked, what was the point of commissioning those reports? What an insult it is to the distinguished people who make up those committees if we cannot wait before we leap into legislation. We all know that legislation in haste—and if any measure was legislation in haste it must be this one—usually ends in tears. How can it be right to proceed with such highly controversial measures when we do not know what the two important reports will say?
4.28 p.m.
Lord Marlesford: My Lords, I shall briefly state the reason that I shall vote for the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Moran. I refer to one lacuna in the Bill. There is nothing about protecting animal health by the proper processing of imports. I have been putting down a series of Questions for Written Answer. Those answers I have received reveal a shambles. I have put down subsequent questions which the Government have some difficulty in answering. But that consideration must be taken into account if the Bill is intended to protect animal health.
4.29 p.m.
Lord Plumb: My Lords, I do not speak because of the kind compliments paid by my noble friend Lord Jopling. He referred to earlier days. It is amazing how much one can remember of what took place 34 years ago. How many lessons we have learned during that time is debatable. There are plenty of lessons to be learned from the outbreak of last year. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, reminded us of the tremendous job that many people did in the field, working for periods of 24 hours. I wholly support that.
The noble Baroness said that of course they did not cause the chaos, but chaos there was. We saw chaos in abundance throughout the whole country. We all hope that that kind of thing will be avoided in the future.After a debate lasting one and a half hours, the Minister must be anxious to respond to the many comments that have been made, and I am sure that the Chief Whip will be keen to get on with the business of the House. But in his excellent opening speech leading the debate, the noble Lord, Lord Moran, reminded us that some 10 weeks were allowed from the last debate we held in this House for evidence to be taken from those concerned in the industry. That was made clear. It will not surprise the Minister to learn that I have read the submissions of the majority of those who gave evidence over that period. I have to say that I see no comparison between the evidence that was submitted and what is contained in this Bill. The problem we have to face is that, while the Minister has tabled one or two amendments, they are not sufficient to satisfy people in the country.
As my noble friend Lord Peel pointed out earlier, it is those people with whom we are concerned. They have already reacted and they will react further unless we are given something that looks towards the future and which is satisfactory. I regret therefore that the changes we called for on the last occasion have not been included.
What will happen when Professor Anderson's "lessons learned" report eventually emerges? If we have come to certain conclusions in this place and the Bill has been passed, I ask the Minister whether we shall then have to have another Bill. Will further legislation be produced in light of those further reports? I know from my previous experience that I would have felt insulted if, after the government had accepted our recommendations, they had then suddenly decided to ignore them and to bring forward a Bill.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Moran, in his comment that further time needs to be given to consider this. That does not mean that I or anyone else is anxious to delay matters. Contingency measures have been put in place so that action could be taken in the disastrous event of another outbreak of foot and mouth disease or, indeed, any other disease, because the legislation seeks to cover all diseases and thus they have to be dealt with in this way.
I have every confidence in the veterinary services of this country. I have every confidence that we have sufficient scientists and epidemiologists, who are already considering and preparing for the possibility, God forbid, that we suffer another outbreak. I would only submit that if we did have another outbreak, we would never see the same situation again. I truly believe that greater concentration would be made on "ring" vaccination which—who knows at the moment?—could prevent the massive contiguous culls which have caused the slaughter of so many clean cattle during this outbreak.
Much has been said about the importance of dealing effectively with meat imports. Following our previous debate 10 weeks ago, I asked the Minister for a figure which was then sent to me in writing. At the time I was told that over the course of the foot and mouth disease outbreak, some 180,339 tonnes of meat had been imported from seven countries where foot and mouth disease is endemic. That was absolutely crazy, given the measures taken by certain countries that have been referred to during the course of our debate. They take firm measures to prevent products or even people from countries where there is a disease outbreak from entering their areas. I suggest that we concentrate far more on dealing with problems before they arise, rather than concentrate now on what measures would have to be taken in the event of such a terrible tragedy taking place again.
4.35 p.m.
The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, deserves some praise for being the only supporter of the Bill over the entire one-and-a-half-hour discussion so far. But her argument that the Bill is needed because the Government do not have the essential powers to deal with an outbreak of foot and mouth disease have been completely undermined by the Government's actions since Second Reading.
In addition to the two questions put to the Minister by my noble friend Lord Jopling, I should be grateful if he could tell noble Lords what action he took after the scare in Yorkshire some weeks ago? It was thought that we were about to suffer another outbreak of foot and mouth disease. Did the Minister have in hand emergency legislation that would have been presented to the House? Was this Bill going to be brought forward as a matter of urgency? What action was taken at that stage to remedy the alleged lacuna in the Minister's armoury to tackle foot and mouth disease? It is clear that this Bill did not appear on the Order Paper at that stage and, so far as I know, no attempt was made to bring it forward.
I believe, therefore, that the Minister himself has destroyed his own argument, one which he used in response to the House in the debate on Second Reading. He said then that he needed the provisions of this Bill and that he needed them quickly. I hope that he will be able to give a full answer to my noble friend Lord Jopling in response to the question that I have just posed.
4.37 p.m.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, of course I have a great deal of sympathy for the Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moran, being considered this afternoon, having moved a similar Motion myself on Second Reading. My view then was that this House should hear the Government's reasoning as to why they needed the Bill in this form. This afternoon noble Lords have again expressed their anger in the strongest terms because they have not been offered a Bill in a form that they had expected.
The Government have claimed continually that what they seek is a simple amendment to the Animal Health Act 1981 in the form of emergency legislation. The anger that has been expressed by noble Lords this afternoon reflects the fact that this Bill goes far beyond that by conferring new powers on the Minister and his officials, while—as many noble Lords have pointed out—it does nothing to improve controls on imports. My party has pointed out both in this House and in another place that the Bill is not proportionate.
I had hoped that, between the debate on Second Reading and today, the Government would have brought forward a raft of amendments or would have indicated that they were willing to accept many of our amendments, along with those put down by other noble Lords. They would have vastly improved the Bill.
The two inquiries which have been referred to this afternoon are supplemented by the European Union inquiry which will look more deeply into the balance between vaccination and vaccination and cull. That inquiry may well reach different conclusions with regard to what the European Union will allow in terms of vaccination, as well as with regard to the whole policy approach to the control of foot and mouth disease. That is something which we should bear in mind.
I do not expect my position to be popular with noble Lords this afternoon because I continue to believe that we should allow the Government at least the Committee stage so that they are given an opportunity to explain how they might intend to bring forward simple emergency legislation. I recognise that the Government are responsible here and that they must do their best to control outbreaks of disease in animals. However, I firmly believe that the Government must accept into the provisions of this Bill some of the duties and responsibilities that are incumbent on them.
Beyond the matter of import controls, I return to the issue of the public inquiry, which is the subject of another amendment to the Bill. However, despite calls from all sides of the House and from all over the country, the Government have dug in their heels and have refused to allow a public inquiry. Thus, at the moment, the Floor of the House is probably the most public place in which we are likely to get any answers to our questions.
Next Section
Back to Table of Contents
Lords Hansard Home Page