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The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, perhaps the noble Baroness will forgive me, but how does the Liberal Democrat Party expect to be taken seriously as the main opposition party when the moment that the Government get themselves in shtook it starts crawling to them?
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I do not believe that the House wants to debate politics this afternoon. I want to debate the issue of animal health, and how best to control animal disease. The noble Earl should not make light of that aim.
The Government now have some choices before them: they can amend the Bill—indeed, there are many helpful hints as to how to do that in the amendments now before the House—or they could delay the Bill until they can benefit from the findings of the inquiries. I believe that the quality of the forthcoming evidence will be most useful. Alternatively, I ask noble Lords to consider a third option; namely, that we go for a thoroughly amended Bill that we debate on Report. I draw noble Lords' attention to my proposed sunset clause, which would allow the Government simply to take forward emergency powers that would then lapse. In tabling the amendment, I have given the Government time to consider the results of the inquiries, as well as the reactions to them, and to draw up legislation as a result.
If I do not vote for the Motion moved by the noble Lord, Lord Moran, this afternoon, noble Lords can be absolutely assured that that is not a sign that the Liberal Democrats are of the view that the Government have come anywhere near striking the right balance in this Bill thus far. We should explore the issues further in public. I believe that the Government could still table amendments that would provide us with a constructive way to proceed. I urge the Government, therefore, to take that opportunity. I look forward to hearing the Minister's reply.
4.42 p.m.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, I have much sympathy for the Motion moved by the noble Lord, Lord Moran, about which we have spoken together. A similar amendment was moved and debated on Second Reading by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, when there were two to three speakers only who spoke in favour of what I regard as an odious Bill. The Government should have no doubt about the feeling on the Bill—namely, that it should be held over. To date, there has been only one supporter for the proposition that we should go ahead; and, indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, has just expressed her concerns in that respect.
As other noble Lords have said, this Bill was brought forward in great haste. As my noble friend Lord Jopling observed, if this legislation was urgently required why have we waited these 10 weeks for its introduction? The Minister urged that there could be another outbreak. He said that the draconian powers in the Bill would be necessary, and that such legislation was urgently required. Second Reading took place on 14th January—I should remember because it was my birthday—and some two months plus have elapsed since then. Having waited those two months, why is it not appropriate to wait for the findings of the Government's own inquiries that are due to be completed this summer, given the fact that we are unlikely to complete the proceedings on the Bill before that time? Indeed, that even adds weight to the suggestion that we should wait.
My noble friend Lord Plumb said that the evidence being given to the various ongoing inquiries does not reflect the thrust of the Bill. Indeed, Scottish Ministers are not pushing for an equivalent Bill, as is the case
with the Northern Ireland Ministers. Animal health and disease control are not dependent on national boundaries. My noble friend Lord Peel spoke about the consultation in Scotland, without the introduction of a Bill, while my noble friend Lord Monro referred to issues that need addressing as regards the Scottish and English borders.The National Audit Office and Dr Anderson's inquiries are well under way. On top of that, as several of my noble friends observed, there have also been various county inquiries. The Mercer inquiry in Devon was particularly critical, and stressed that the first matter to be addressed should be the question of import controls. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford referred to the need for the Government to address the prevailing situation. Although the Government have brought forward one or two amendments to the Bill, none of them appear before Clause 6. I believe that the first government amendment is Amendment No. 58.
The Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Moran, asks for a delay until,
- "the responses to the consultation . . . have been published".
The second part of the noble Lord's Motion deals specifically with the government inquiries into the foot-and-mouth outbreak. The Government should hold a proper, independent public inquiry. They should wait until such inquiries have been completed and reported; and, as several noble Lords have said, such findings should be incorporated in the legislation. In fact, looking at the situation logically, if we go ahead with the Bill today it will not complete its passage through both Houses of Parliament until the time when both inquiries will report. Therefore, is it not logical to wait until such inquiries have reported, so as to have something firm upon which to build? If proceedings on the Bill go ahead today, we shall press that argument strongly during its passage.
Amendment No. 151 goes further than the Motion moved by the noble Lord, Lord Moran. It is bad enough that the Government have set themselves against holding a public inquiry; but, in doing so, they risk losing the important information that the inquiries in progress could bring forward. Some of that information might help to restrict and to prevent the disease spreading in any future outbreak.
Does the Minister accept—I hope that he does—that the self-congratulatory style in the Government's submissions to the official foot and mouth inquiry dated 22nd March of this year do not inspire confidence in his department from those who were
affected by the foot and mouth outbreak? I heard the pleas made earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, in that respect. As she knows, I have supported the way in which many officials carried out their work. However, there were criticisms. It seems strange that, in the submissions, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said:
- "We already have drawn up revised interim contingency plans which will build on our experience and are in place to guide our response to any further outbreak".
- "There are further lessons to be learned. The lessons learned and Royal Society inquiries will be comprehensive and fully independent; they will identify what should be done if we were faced with any future outbreak of animal disease".
Perhaps I may refer the House to an animal health centenary document printed in 1965, which some noble Lords may remember. I believe that the statements made in that document are as relevant today as they were at that time. Under the heading "Principles and practices", it said:
- "All these and other inconveniences will only be accepted by farmers if they are made fully aware of the objects of the policy and kept informed of the progress of the campaign at every stage . . . The farming community must be willing to co-operate in every aspect of the work".
Bearing all that in mind, is not the Minister prepared to accept some of the criticism of the way in which the foot and mouth outbreak was handled? If not, how does he expect the Government to take these farming and rural communities along with them, while at the same time giving themselves huge powers in the Bill to slaughter on suspicion?
The forum on illegal food imports, which was announced last week on 21st March, is to start work to address this issue. It has been asked to bring forward an action programme. What is the time-scale for this forum to report to the Government? When will its report be published? When will we have an opportunity to debate it?
Numerous reasons have been given today as to why we should not proceed with the Bill at this time. As I said, my only criticism of the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Moran, is that it does not go far enough. Amendment No. 151 goes a step further and seeks a full independent public inquiry. That is what should happen.
The killing of millions of animals—as the noble Countess, Lady Mar, said, it was not a cull, it was a slaughter—brought untold suffering to animals and to farming communities. It also brought devastation to rural communities, rural businesses and the tourist industry. Compensation for consequential loss was not available and many people are still struggling to regain lost income.
In addition, different practices were adopted and different decisions were taken. For example, no scientific evidence was produced for allowing Phoenix the calf to live. Recently, Kirsty, the girl who attacked an official—I am sorry that she did—when her goat was killed, was given an absolute discharge because the judge felt that the circumstances warranted it.
Those two examples highlight the Government's difficulty. There is no logicality and no scientific grounds for many of the proposals in the Bill. The Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Moran, seeks to delay the Bill, but it totally fails to address the issue of the importation of meat and food products into this country, an issue which has been raised many times by my noble friend Lord Marlesford. The Government have announced the setting up of a forum to address the issue, but we need to know more about it.
We want to know what has been said to the Government by those who have been consulted during the inquiry which finished on 15th March. If we are to discuss these issues in Committee we shall need to know what people have said. If the Government refuse to hold a public inquiry, then, as far as the wider world is concerned, a public inquiry will be held in Committee and on Report in this House. The responsibility will fall on us.
I sympathise with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Moran, and I note the strength of feeling that has been expressed in this area. My role is to ensure that the Bill does not come into force until a full inquiry has been held.
4.53 p.m.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I very much regret that the Motion has been moved in this form. Let us be clear, if the Motion were agreed to the Bill would not pass in this Session of Parliament. If that is the aim of noble Lords rather than to delay the Bill to obtain information, let them be frank about it—because that would be the result.
A number points have been made, both about the conduct of the response to the foot and mouth epidemic and about the powers in the Bill. I shall deal primarily with procedural points and with the reasons why we believe that this Bill needs to be enacted as rapidly as possible. That is not to say that the other points are not important, but many of them will be touched on if we proceed into Committee on the Bill.
The noble Lord, Lord Moran, and others—including the noble Baronesses who have spoken from the Front Benches opposite—asked why, if the matter was so urgent, there has been a delay between Second Reading and the Committee stage, which I hope will begin today. The answer is contained in part of another question of the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, in regard to the results of the consultation which ended last week.
During the course of Second Reading, I was asked whether we would consider before Committee stage the response to that consultation in respect of the protocol on the slaughter powers in the Bill. I believed that that was a reasonable request. I did not
immediately accede to it, but it seemed reasonable that we should consider those responses—and we have done so. Had we proceeded directly to the first group of amendments in the Marshalled List I would have indicated in broad terms the outcome of that consultation. I would have placed in the Library a summary of those responses in order to inform the Committee during the subsequent stages of the Bill.It seemed a reasonable request. Although it has meant delay—and I would have preferred not to have had that delay—it is a clear example that the Government listened to the voice of the House during a fairly robust Second Reading.
The normal position with Bills at Committee stage in this House—certainly in my experience—is that the Government listen. My own personal conduct at Committee stage is also to listen. More than 200 amendments have been tabled by noble Lords who have taken the trouble to register their views as to why they believe the Bill is deficient and why we should take a different course with some parts of the Bill. I have indicated that I would very much be prepared to listen to some of those arguments. The Government have not closed their ears or their mind to the possibility of adopting some of the amendments, or something very like them, in the course of the Committee stage. That is what Committee stages are for. We would come forward with amendments at later stages if we were convinced of the arguments during Committee stage. But to deny the House a Committee stage seems to be an odd departure from the normal procedure of the House.
Indeed, at Second Reading, the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, moved an amendment which, if taken literally, would have delayed the Bill. She was persuaded that it would be sensible to proceed to the Committee stage, and she has rightly reiterated today that the House should move to the Committee stage to hear the Government's responses to the amendments and the arguments. She made the correct decision and did not press her amendment on that occasion. I therefore regret to see a rather more specific amendment, which would cause more delay, on the Order Paper today.
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