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Lord Prior: My Lords, in circumstances where the powers were needed urgently because of an outbreak, surely the House of Commons and this place would give the Government those powers straightaway—and, not only that: the Minister must know now what powers he might need, because he has just tried to tell us what powers the Government would be given under the Bill which he considers to be essential. Why does he not put those into the form of a Bill which he could introduce and push through this House and the other place in a matter of 24 hours?
I do not see why we have to go into this great difficulty now in order to solve a problem which could easily be solved if it came to the crunch. In doing so, the Minister could then start to win the support of the rural community, which is longing to get together and stop all this stuff that is going on at the moment, at a time when the farming industry is in very serious trouble indeed.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, it seems odd to argue that powers that we know we could get through the normal legislative process should be sought only in an emergency situation. I may be wrong, but I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Prior, was the Minister for Agriculture at around the time that the Animal Health Act was passed. Had he and his colleagues had the terrible experience of this epidemic and known what we know now, I believe that they would rightly have written into that Act the powers that I am seeking. They would not have waited to rely on emergency powers. I am therefore seeking parliamentary time, which is always precious, to do that in the normal, considered way in which Parliament undertakes these things. I hope to avoid finding that there is already an epidemic before we bring the matter to the House.
We know what we need. It is not the totality of what we need. We do not know everything that we need, but we know this. In that situation, it would be irresponsible for the Government not to urge on the House the adoption of the Bill and it would be irresponsible of the House to prevent us from gaining those powers. I hope that the House will reject the amendment.
Earl Peel: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, will he address the question of Scotland? Why has the Scottish Parliament decided, in its wisdom, that it is not necessary to bring in an emergency Bill and instead issued a consultation document? I wonder whether the reason is that they managed the affairs in Scotland so admirably under the powers that they already have under the 1981 Act. As my noble friend Lord Monro said earlier, it is crazy to have legislation in England that will be different from that in Scotland.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I am constantly amazed at the rejection of devolution in many contexts, which the Opposition continue to pursue. In this respect,
agriculture is a devolved issue. Scottish Ministers and the Scottish Parliament are entitled to take a different view from that taken in England. In addition, the fact that Scottish Ministers are engaging in a period of consultation shows that they, too, believe that they need additional powers. I also point out tentatively that if, at the end of that consultation period, Scottish Ministers and the Scottish Parliament are convinced that they need legislation, the legislative process in the Scottish Parliament will be somewhat more rapid than it is in Westminster. For that reason, they have, perhaps, the luxury of being able to engage in consultation.
Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, the argument that Ministers use—that devolution means that Scotland will do something different—cannot apply when we are talking about a disease in cattle that wander backwards and forwards over the Border. Surely it is the responsibility of any government and any Scottish Parliament to come to an agreement before they legislate.
Lord Whitty: With respect, my Lords, no. The criminal law in Scotland is different from that in England. Criminals also cross the border with a fair degree of rapidity. There is no reason why the Scottish Parliament should not take a different view on animal health legislation, just as it can on criminal legislation. As a matter of good practice, it is important that Scottish Ministers and English Ministers should keep in close touch and that their powers should not be significantly different. However, the right of the Scottish Parliament to take a different view and to adopt a different timescale is a consequence of devolution. I wish that some noble Lords respected the logic of that position in this context as in many others.
I repeat, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Moran, does not pursue the amendment to a vote, and that if he does so the House will reject it.
5.14 p.m.
Lord Moran: My Lords, I thank all those around the House who have supported me. I have listened with great interest to what has been said. We have heard many powerful speeches and many new and different points have been made. That has been very useful.
My main concern on tabling the amendment was that, on this very important matter, it is necessary to get any legislation right. Almost everybody agrees that the Bill as it stands is not what we want. I am sure that, to be right, the legislation needs to be based on the inquiries that the Government set up. I believe that it is very much in the Government's interests to do that.
At the start of the afternoon, I was firmly of the opinion that it would not be sensible to divide the House, because I did not have the marshalled support of the Liberal Democrat and Conservative Parties. It seemed to me dotty that I should try on my own to challenge the Government. At various times during the debate, the noble Lord, Lord Carter, has given me a baleful and rather intimidating look.
Lord Carter: My Lords, I have never given anybody a baleful look in my life.
Lord Moran: My Lords, I accept that assurance. I am sure that it was going through the noble Lord's head that here was a tiresome independent holding up proceedings, which he was anxious to get on with. I know that he is a distinguished countryman and a noted farming expert. I wondered whether, at the back of his mind, his private view was slightly sceptical.
Having heard what has been said all around the House, I think that it is right that, however slender our chances, those who take the same view as I do should have the chance to express their opinion. I therefore ask the House to support my amendment.
5.17 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 130; Not-Contents, 124.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Belstead, L.
Biffen, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brightman, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chorley, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cox, B.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dundee, E.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Falkland, V.
Fearn, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Glentoran, L.
Gloucester, Bp.
Hanham, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Hereford, Bp.
Higgins, L.
Holderness, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lindsay, E.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moran, L. [Teller]
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Plumb, L.
Prior, L.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Rix, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rogan, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Sandwich, E.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strange, B.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walpole, L.
Warnock, B.
Wilberforce, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L. [Teller]
Wright of Richmond, L.
Acton, L.
Alli, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bragg, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Jeger, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McCarthy, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Orme, L.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Serota, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thornton, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.
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