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Lord Kilclooney: Oh yes, that was said this morning. Will the Chief Whip therefore confirm that this display of pique and pettiness is a sign of a government who are no longer sure of themselves?
Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, my noble friend knows that there are many very angry elected Members of Parliament in the other place who are concerned about what happened to the Animal Health Bill in the House of Lords yesterday. Can he tell us what is now going to happen to this extremely important Bill? I understand that it was welcomed by the NFU and a majority in the other place. It was greatly anticipated by many departments of state throughout the country, particularly MAFF.
Lord Molyneaux of Killead: My Lords, I have a note from the Chief Whip's office that was circulated yesterday at around 7.15 p.m. It was no doubt an attempt to be helpful. It simply said:
- "We tried to contact you this evening but I suspect you have all gone home for the Easter Recess".
Lord Smith of Clifton: My Lords, we on these Benches find it intolerable that this timetabling change has occurred. We had been assured that Second Reading would be after Easter. Next week I was going to devote my time to this very lengthy and technical Bill. Frankly, I have to apologise in advance for the fact that any speech that I make tomorrow on Second Reading will be rather generalised and banal because I have not had adequate time to prepare.
Baroness Park of Monmouth: My Lords, I hope that it can never be said that this Bill has been put on the Order Paper simply because of what happened in the
House yesterday. Surely other legislation could have been brought forward. I fully understand that the work has to be completed and that, because of yesterday's actions, the noble Lord has been left with a space to fill, but the Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill is a vital issue. It is gravely unjust that there should be no possibility to prepare for it seriously. It makes a nonsense of the Second Reading. But, above all, what message does it send to the people of Northern Ireland?
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I suppose that in an ideal world we would have had more notice, but in an ideal world the Government would not have lost the Animal Health Bill yesterday.
Lord Dubs: My Lords, I repeat, in an ideal world, the Government would not have lost the measure that was lost yesterday. No one can quarrel with that—not with my definition of "ideal". But, whatever the difficulties facing the Chief Whip—I know him personally, as do all noble Lords—he does not deserve the personal criticisms that have been made of him today. That is not worthy of this House.
Lord Glentoran: My Lords, what happened yesterday had nothing to do with Northern Ireland. The Chief Whip will understand when I say that it also had nothing intentionally to do with me. As a result of what happened yesterday, the Government have gained five days of business. Tomorrow is Maundy Thursday. For my Province, the Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill is a very, very significant piece of legislation. My Chief Whip and I have agreed, through the usual channels, to take the Committee stage in Grand Committee. For Ulster Unionists, for the Ulster people and for myself on this side of the House, I ask the Government to make a gesture and to allow us time to consider the Bill.
My noble and learned friend Lord Mayhew of Twysden, who has been Attorney-General and Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, is not available. To the best of my knowledge, many more of my Back-Benchers who are interested in the Bill will not be available to enable the House to have a meaningful debate about the future of the criminal justice system in Northern Ireland. Second Reading debates are very important. I ask the Government to reconsider the decision.
Lord Carter: My Lords, perhaps I can take the House through the difficult situation that I faced yesterday evening. The Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrat Party Chief Whips very reluctantly agreed to this business being tabled. They did not welcome it, but they understood the difficulty that I faced. In that situation, they recognised that I had to make a difficult decision and quickly.
The Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill was my original choice for tomorrow's business. The Opposition chose to take the Animal Health Bill instead. I have no complaints about that. As the House had made it
impossible to proceed with the Animal Health Bill, I simply returned to the original option and the original plan. I immediately say to the noble Lords of the Ulster Unionist Party that they would not have known that because that was discussed some three weeks ago in the usual channels. When we decided to proceed with the Animal Health Bill, the Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill dropped out.This situation is not of the Government's or my making. Yesterday, the House was perfectly entitled to vote as it did. I wish that it had voted differently, but having so voted the House must not be surprised that, as business manager, I had to reorganise the business quickly. The change had to be made because of yesterday's vote. Therefore, for whatever business we tabled there would be only 48 hours' notice. Of course, I appreciate the inconvenience. Whatever business I put down would be very inconvenient to those involved. I am extremely sympathetic to the case made by the Ulster Unionists, but the fact remains that whatever I had tabled would have inconvenienced one group of noble Lords or another. My noble friend the Leader of the House, the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, and the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, and all those who want to speak in the debate tomorrow have been inconvenienced.
We did our best. As soon as there was a possibility that the Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill would be on the Order Paper, officials in my office telephoned the Ulster Unionist Party's office in the House of Commons. I reached the decision at about 7 o'clock last evening. The officials rang two different numbers, but received no reply. They then sent an e-mail to ensure that the UUP knew as soon as possible about tomorrow's business.
I quite understand the inconvenience that this change of programme has produced for all those involved in Northern Ireland matters. I can assure your Lordships—your Lordships know me well enough—that no spite whatever was intended to those engaged in Northern Ireland matters. I am sorry, but the House must understand that after it had voted to cancel two days' business at 24 hours' notice—under the rules of the House the business had to be tabled last evening—I had about an hour to make up my mind and to undertake the difficult task of deciding on the business to be taken. Your Lordships know that my office takes enormous trouble to table business to suit all those involved. We now publish provisional business—I emphasise "provisional"—three weeks ahead.
In the situation that I faced yesterday, the normal arrangements could not apply, but we tried very hard in difficult circumstances. In Committee, on Report and at Third Reading, there will be opportunities, if your Lordships want—I am sure that you will—to discuss those parts of the Bill that the other place did not discuss in detail.
I say to the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, that what he said was nonsense. It was unworthy of him and I would be grateful to him if he would withdraw what he said. Yesterday evening I took the decision to table this
Bill. I did not look at the votes list to see who had voted. I did not know that the noble Lords, Lord Rogan and Lord Laird, had voted against the Government. The noble Lord is nodding. Is he calling me a liar? I did not know how the noble Lords, Lord Rogan and Lord Laird, had voted.
Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, will the noble Lord give way?
Lord Carter: My Lords, of course.
Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, this morning it was reported to me that the noble Lord, Lord Carter, had named two Ulster Unionist Peers as having voted against the Government and that that was one of the reasons why the debate was being held tomorrow.
Lord Carter: My Lords, that is nonsense. I took the decision yesterday evening. To be perfectly honest, last evening I was much more interested in looking at those who had voted for the Government. It was only this morning, when I came in, and looked at the other list—I had already taken the decision and the Bill was already on the Order Paper—that I discovered how the noble Lords, Lord Rogan and Lord Laird, had voted. That could not have been a part of my decision last evening. When the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, came to see me, I pointed out that those who had voted against the Government had produced this situation. The noble Lords, Lord Rogan and Lord Laird, were two of those who voted against the Government.
In fact, I did not intend to mention that matter in this statement, but I have done so as the noble Lord has raised it. I ask him now to withdraw any imputation that the Justice (Northern Ireland) Bill was placed on the Order Paper as a result of the votes of the noble Lords, Lord Rogan and Lord Laird.
Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, I have heard the explanation given by the member of the Government. I have another source—the persons who met you this morning. I shall check with them before I make any further statement on this matter.
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