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Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I wholeheartedly support everything that the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House has just said. It is entirely right that our thanks and congratulations as a House should go to Black Rod. Of course this was an event that had been a long time in the planning. It went without a hitch.
The noble and learned Lord used the word "dignity". He was quite right to do so. I witnessed some of the queuing that took place. There was no trouble in the very long queues. The operation was expertly controlled. The decision at this sad time to allow access to Westminster Hall for nearly 24 hours a day was utterly right and demonstrated the flexibility of the House authorities. The supplying of tea and coffee and other help in Victoria Gardens also worked extremely well.
I think that there is huge appreciation, not just from this House but throughout the country, for the way in which the operation was managed. It was seamless. Our wholehearted thanks go not only to Black Rod, as
the noble and learned Lord quite rightly said, but to him and his team, for running this excellently executed operation.
Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, perhaps I may add the thanks of these Benches. There is no question but that Black Rod, his deputy and the staff of the House caught in a most remarkable way a national mood. It was a national mood of respect, dignity and affection, but also one that showed an extraordinary level of self-restraint. Anyone who saw the way in which the British public behaved would recognise how its respect for the Queen Mother was reflected fully in the attitudes and the extraordinary dedication of the staff of this House. I should like to echo what the noble Lord the Leader of the Official Opposition said about, in particular, the ability to keep the House open for 24 hours a day in order to allow everyone who wished to do so to pay their respects.
Perhaps I may finally pay tribute to the excellent bearing of the Captain of the Gentleman-at-Arms and the Captain of the Yeomen of the Guard who did this House proud in the way that they guarded the catafalque. I am sure that we would all want to be associated with thanks given to them.
Lord Craig of Radley: My Lords, on behalf of these Benches, I echo the words of the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House. On behalf of all Cross-Benchers, I thank Black Rod and his team for their work. I hope that the House will agree that Sir Michael's background and knowledge was a contributory factor in the quite outstanding success and pageantry of the past 10 days. They have been days of great historical importance, emotions and national unity. We give our congratulations to him and to all his team who so willingly and enthusiastically devoted enormous time and effort in ensuring the success of the arrangements made for the lying-in-state of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother. We thoroughly support what the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House said.
The Lord Bishop of Portsmouth: My Lords, I associate these Benches very much with the words of the noble and learned Lord. A huge amount of extra work was done. It was widely appreciated. I know that I speak for many clergy of all denominations all over the country in saying how good it was to know that Westminster Hall was open while we gave interviews or preached sermons and were able to refer to that unique piece of history. Congratulations to them all.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Business of the House: Debates this Day
3.14 p.m.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the debates on the Motions in the names of the Baroness Williams of Crosby and the Baroness Sharp of Guildford set down for today shall each be limited to two and a half hours.—(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Lord Carter: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 3.40 p.m.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
[The Sitting was suspended from 3.15 to 3.40 p.m.]
Middle East
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. The Statement is as follows:
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"With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to make a Statement following my discussions with President Bush in Crawford, Texas. Normally, an informal bilateral meeting would not be the subject of a Statement. Exceptionally, because of the situation in the Middle East, I thought it right to come to this House and give honourable Members a more extended chance to put questions than Prime Minister's Questions affords.
"Of course, at Crawford we discussed many issues, including bilateral relations, trade issues, Afghanistan, India and Pakistan, Russia and the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, Africa and energy policy. I am very willing to answer questions on these issues. But it is on the Middle East that I will concentrate. My right honourable friend the Leader of the House will also deal with this issue in the usual way in tomorrow's Business Statement, and there will be a further opportunity for debate next week.
"There are many situations, both at home and abroad, that are called a crisis when in truth they are not. In this case, it is hard to overstate the dangers or the potential for this conflict to impact far beyond the region itself. It is indeed a genuine crisis, and one on which all of us, in whatever way we can, small or large, have a duty to act.
"In the past few days, I have discussed the situation not just with President Bush but with President Putin, President Mubarak, President Chirac, Prime Minister Jospin, Prime Minister Aznar and others. I look forward to discussing it in depth with Chancellor Schro der of Germany this weekend. And my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has been in constant contact with his counterparts.
"No one who has been following recent events on television could fail to recognise not only the seriousness of the situation but the scale of human suffering. In the past fortnight, there have been at least 55 deaths in six suicide bombings in Israel. Just
- this morning, at least eight people died in a suicide attack on a bus near Haifa. In the West Bank, at least 230 Palestinians and 34 Israelis have died. More than 1,500 Palestinians have been injured. A million Palestinians live under curfew.
"There have been terrible human tragedies on both sides. Our hearts go out to the families of the victims, whether Israeli or Palestinian: the two Israeli women who went with their families to a cafe in Haifa and lost their husbands and children in an appalling suicide bomb attack; the Palestinian bell-ringer of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem who was shot and killed in Manger Square; and the 12-year old Palestinian boy who went out when the curfew was lifted to buy some milk and never returned—he too was shot and killed.
"Amid the suffering, there appears to be no strategy to end it, therefore no hope. Both sides must see that violence is not and never will be the answer. The solution to this crisis will never be reached if it is seen purely as a security or military question. There must be a political process too.
"I believe that the whole House will welcome President Bush's statement last week calling on the Israelis to withdraw from the Occupied Territories and the Palestinian Authority to tackle the terrorism. Without those basic minimum steps and without a proper ceasefire that sticks, we cannot even begin to get a political process restarted.
"What can be done? In summary, I can tell the House that we are taking the following steps. We are in close touch with the Israelis and the Palestinians, with the United States, with our European Union partners and with governments in the Arab world in the urgent search for a way of stopping the bloodshed and getting a political process restarted.
"We shall be seeking a UN Security Council resolution, based on Crown Prince Abdullah's plan, to promote such a process following Secretary of State Powell's visit to the region this weekend.
"We stand ready to help with monitoring both of detainees and of a ceasefire when one is established. I am convinced that this is a role that the European Union is well placed to undertake.
"We are also ready, together with our European partners, to help the Palestinian Authority to rebuild the infrastructure of the West Bank and Gaza, and work with it, too, in reconstituting its administrative structures. We are also ready to help it establish an accountable and transparent security structure that can co-operate with the Israelis and the wider international community to ensure peace and security in a Palestinian state and so underpin the stability of the region.
"In respect of stability in the region, let me say a word on Iraq. There will be many occasions on which to debate Saddam Hussein's flagrant breach of successive United Nations resolutions on his weapons of mass destruction. For the moment, let me say this.
"Saddam Hussein's regime is despicable. He is developing weapons of mass destruction and we cannot leave him doing so unchecked. He is a threat to his own people and to the region and, if allowed to develop those weapons, a threat to us also.
"Doing nothing is not an option. As I said in my speech in Texas, the international community should through the United Nations challenge Saddam to let the inspectors back in without restriction—anyone, any place, any time. If he really has nothing to hide, let him prove it.
"I repeat, however, that no decisions on action have been taken. Our way of proceeding should be and will be measured, calm and thought through. When judgments are made, I shall ensure that the House has a full opportunity to debate them.
"Returning to the more pressing matter of Israel and Palestine, at some time both sides will realise that no matter how much blood is shed and no matter how many lives are wasted, Israel will still be there and the Palestinian Authority will still be there.
"The initiative of Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, agreed by the Arab nations, is based on UN Security Council Resolutions 242 and 1397. It is the only realistic basis for a solution—land for peace. The Israelis must allow a state of Palestine, secure in its own borders and, in exchange, the Palestinians and the whole Arab world must recognise and respect Israel's borders. A UN Security Council resolution restating those principles with firm international backing is the best way forward politically.
"The House will know that in the region, especially from the Israelis, there is much hostility to the idea of outside intervention. But the sad, simple truth is that the hatreds are too deep, the wounds too raw, for the two sides to be able to resolve this alone. The US is right to be engaged and to press both sides to change, and I am clear after my visit to the US for talks with President Bush that the focus and engagement that is required will be forthcoming. Colin Powell's visit to the region is welcome evidence of that.
"Both sides have heard many words of condemnation. I do not need to add to them here. I understand the anger of the Palestinians who see the steady encroachment of Israeli settlers who take their land from them in defiance of international law and successive UN Security Council resolutions. This must stop.
"But so must the appalling suicide bombings that have taken so many Israeli lives in the past few months. Palestinians have supporters the world over for their cause, but that support is weakened every time the suicide bombers act. Chairman Arafat must speak to his people and do everything in his power to stop these murderous outrages.
"Both sides know what needs to be done and they should get on and do it now. Real leadership is tested by tough decisions, not easy words. No
- matter how strong the feelings, no matter how deep the hatreds, now is the time to pull back, to stop and to realise that the current strategy is going nowhere, that the time for violence is over and the time to get a peace process going overdue. The international community is ready to help. People the world over are willing us to do so. Whatever we can do to help, we will."
3.48 p.m.
Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement. It was right and appropriate that we should adjust our procedures to allow the Statement to be made before the debate on Iraq. I also welcome the fact that the Statement was made to Parliament by the Prime Minister.
All of us will have heard the further news this morning of another appalling and inexcusable attack on civilians in Haifa and of further distressing violence around the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. When the perpetrators of violence fail to respect the sanctity either of innocent life or of sacred places, then more than ever it is the moment when statesmanship is needed from those in a position to lead.
We agree with the Prime Minister that there must be a stepping-up of efforts to help both Israel and the Palestinian people to find a resolution of this conflict. There is only one just outcome to this dispute: one in which two states, Israel and a viable democratic Palestinian state, can live together in peace and security. It will not be easy to get from here to there, but the alternative to an attempt to do so is too stark to envisage.
So like the Prime Minister, we wish the United States Secretary of State, Colin Powell, well in the round of negotiations that he is conducting in the region. We agree with him, with President Bush and with the UN Secretary-General, that Israel must end its incursions into cities in the Palestinian Authority territory without delay. However, we also agree that Chairman Arafat must use all his power and authority to end terrorism against Israel and to do so determinedly and unremittingly.
There can be no purely military solution to the dispute, whatever short-term successes may be achieved. We must acknowledge, however, that it is the duty of any government to protect their citizens from terrorism. The Israeli people are being subjected to a vile and orchestrated campaign of terror. Day after day, suicide bombers have killed innocent civilians, even children. There is no martyrdom in such bestial crimes. All those with spiritual and political influence must declare that the only reward for suicide bombing is eternal infamy.
In the light of what the Statement says about Iraq, can the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House say anything about the possible links between Iraq and terrorism against Israel? In view of the debate that is about to take place, I shall add nothing about Iraq, save to say that I note that the Statement says
that no decisions have been taken on Iraq. Can the noble and learned Lord shed any light on a broad timetable of events, especially in respect of the role of the inspectors, against which Saddam must respond?In line with our unequivocal demand for Israeli withdrawal, we believe that there is also a heavy responsibility on Chairman Arafat and the Palestinian Authority. They must play their part in creating the conditions in which meaningful negotiation can begin. Does the noble and learned Lord agree that the key to the peace process must be the short and long-term guarantee of Israel's security? What is the Government's assessment of Mr Arafat's willingness to guarantee Israel's security against future attack and of the ability of Arab states to assist in that crucial task? What is the Government's assessment of Mr Arafat's ability to influence the terrorists at all?
We support the Government in their readiness to consider the possibility of underpinning a ceasefire by holding out the prospect of significant economic aid to the West Bank. However, such aid must be dependent on a complete and unequivocal end to terrorism.
We agree that, following an end to the violence, the basis for any resumed dialogue should be the proposals put forward by Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia. The plan contains the guarantee for long-term security for Israel, but, before we reach that stage, we need measures to ensure Israel's interim security. The two cannot be divorced.
The crisis will only get worse, unless two things happen without delay: an end to violence and guarantees of security. On these Benches, we will continue to support the Government and the Government of the United States in pursuit of those objectives.
3.53 p.m.
Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House and the usual channels for enabling the Statement to be made, with some delay, before the forthcoming debate. That is the most logical way of doing things. I thank the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House for being willing to innovate in that way. On these Benches, we appreciate the sensitive, thoughtful and responsive Statement that was made. Broadly, we share the position taken by the Prime Minister on the Middle East.
The tragedy is all the greater because the deeply gifted people of Israel could make a huge contribution to the prosperity and development of the whole region, were this terrible war to be brought to a conclusion. That conclusion must be reached on the basis of security for both sides and the recognition of the need for a state of Israel, protected and guaranteed by the international community, and a new state of Palestine, with the same kind of guarantees.
Can the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House tell us whether the Government of Israel have taken any further steps in response to the plea made by President Bush and our Prime Minister to pull back from the occupation of the Palestinian territories? Will
there be recognition in that pull-back that, if President Arafat is to be held responsible—as he should be—for trying to deal with the causes of suicide bombing, as well as the offence itself, he must have at least some authority over a Palestinian police force and over the headquarters of his security staff, so that he can take the action that the international community rightly demands?Can the noble and learned Lord say something about whether the concept of a ceasefire can be linked directly to the Saudi Arabian proposal for joint recognition of the right of each state to exist and to the more detailed agreements reached in the past two years at Camp David and Taba? Those agreements deal with virtually all the outstanding current issues relating to the Middle East but have been allowed to slip because of the growing violence resorted to by both sides. What was achieved at Camp David and Taba came so close to a settlement acceptable to both sides that it would be a tragedy for the world if the international community were to make no attempt to revive the agreements reached by the two sides—excepting only the issues of the settlements and the future of Jerusalem—and put them together again.
The Prime Minister referred to the settlements. Can the noble and learned Lord say whether consideration has been given to asking Israel to desist from further building of settlements? Each settlement makes a final solution more difficult to attain and makes it more difficult for the Palestinians to accept that Israel has a genuine and serious desire to make lasting peace.
The Prime Minister made a welcome reference to the possible use of monitors. The European Union monitors are vitally necessary, as the European Union is perceived, to some extent, as being a neutral party between the two sides. General Powell, the Secretary of State, has already referred to the use of United States monitors. However, can the noble and learned Lord say whether consideration could be given to the possibility of bringing in monitors from moderate Arab countries? That would give the Palestinians a sense that their interests were being borne in mind by the monitors. The success of monitoring depends on the recognition that it is even-handed. The make-up of the monitoring team is crucial to the success of such a strategy.
3.57 p.m.
Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, I am grateful for the tone adopted by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, and by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby. It is essential, if we are to have the continuing influence that both party leaders specified, that we present a front that not only appears to be united but is indeed united on fundamentals and principles.
Undoubtedly, Iraq has connections with various terrorist organisations. Some of those organisations are no longer active, others are still extremely active and causing mischief in the Middle East. There can be no doubt about that in the mind of any rational person. I cannot give the noble Lord, Lord
Strathclyde, a precise timetable for inspectors. It is true, as a matter of historical record, that Hussein has been dilatory and evasive for some years. That is why President Bush and the Prime Minister are right to be as firm as they are in saying that doing nothing is not an option and that action is necessary. If, as he claims, Saddam Hussein is not developing weapons of mass destruction, the easiest way to demonstrate that is to have independent inspectors.The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, asked whether I agreed that the key to the process was a short-term guarantee and a long-term guarantee, including contributions from the Arab states. The noble Lord is right. The initiative launched by Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia is a small ray of hope. There is no doubt that what he is contemplating includes guarantees of the existence of two viable states—to use the noble Lord's phrase—a viable Palestinian state and a safe and secure Israel.
I turn to economic aid. One of the purposes for Secretary Colin Powell's attendance at Madrid, which has been wholly misunderstood and substantially misrepresented, was to have a meeting of a quartet of powers and organisations—the United States, Russia, the European Union and the United Nations. A full press communiqué was issued today and part of that deals with the rebuilding of Palestinian structures and institutions.
Secretary Powell said that he is discussing those questions with regional leaders. "The tools of governance", to use his phrase, will need to be rebuilt, as will, similarly, the security apparatus to work with Arafat's own population and the Israelis. He made the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, that investment will be needed. I believe that that is a positive communiqué from the Madrid meeting.
Secretary Powell will not be arriving in Israel until Friday of this week. Therefore, I have no further material to answer the first question posed by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams; namely, have the Israeli Government further responded beyond what I believe would be described by most people as a very limited and partial pull-back? I have nothing more definite that I can give, and it may be that there will be nothing more definite until 12th April. I simply do not know.
I have dealt partly with the noble Baroness's second question—namely, will it be necessary for Mr Arafat to have some authority over the police force—in the citation which I gave from Secretary Powell in answer to the wider question put by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. The noble Baroness, Lady Williams, asked whether the ceasefire could be, or ought to be, linked to the Saudi Arabian proposal and whether detailed matters are under discussion. They are and it seems likely that if one could have a United Nations Security Council resolution on the broad basis of the Crown Prince's proposal, that might be a fruitful avenue to explore.
As regards the further building of settlements, I believe that Her Majesty's Government have made it perfectly plain that many of the settlements presently
in existence are unlawful. Her Majesty's Government have also made it plain regularly that no further unlawful activity ought to be carried out by the Israeli Government in the context of further settlements being built.I believe that the last question related to monitors. It is certainly true, as the Prime Minister said and repeated in his Statement, that we are perfectly happy ourselves to provide monitors and perfectly happy to work with an EU monitoring force. Speaking for myself, I believe that the noble Baroness's suggestion that monitors from Arab countries could perform a useful function, is certainly an imaginative and thoughtful one which ought to be given further consideration. I see the virtue of apparent even-handedness in the selection of monitors.
4.3 p.m.
Lord Wright of Richmond: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord has spoken of the need for future investment. However, can he give an estimate of how much of the European Union's past investment in the Occupied Territories, in terms of both physical investment and training, has been destroyed by Israeli incursions over the past few weeks?
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