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Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, the Minister has made much of Amendment No. 42. The amendment states:

"The Secretary of State shall not give a direction . . . in relation to any police force unless—

(a) the police authority maintaining that force and the chief officer of that force have each been given such information about the Secretary of State's grounds for proposing to give that direction as he considers appropriate for enabling them to make representations or proposals under the following paragraphs...

(b) that police authority and chief officer have each been given an opportunity of making representations...

(c) that police authority, in the case of a proposal for the giving of a direction... has had an opportunity of making proposals for the taking of remedial measures...

(d) that chief officer, in the case of a proposal for the giving of a direction... has had an opportunity of making proposals for the taking of remedial measures...

(e) the Secretary of State has considered any such representations and any such proposals".

It does not talk about whether there might be time for those proposals to be implemented or about their failure. The Minister is gently stretching the amendment, although I accept its good intention. We have to deal with the words before us in the Bill. That is a perennial problem with legislation.

The Minister says—I regret to say, with a certain amount of correctness—that the police authority never carries the can; not least in the persistent failures of local administration which have taken place throughout my experience in local government. That is because of the failure of government in the centre to treat local bodies as if they were responsible, so that they would have had to behave responsibly. They have been wet-nursed, nappied and bailed out so many times that they hardly know that they are adult anymore.

That is not a criticism of this Government, but this Government are rather better at that than some of their predecessors. I accept the Home Secretary's difficulty when he stands before many irate Members in another place demanding action on a local problem. Something has not been mentioned so far in the debate; the intensification and development of management information over the past decade, largely as a result of computerisation and the speed of communication. These problems have intensified because everything is analysed in so much more detail; detail that did not exist a few years ago.

We now have a situation where the Home Secretary knows of a problem in Muchbinding-in-the-Marsh or wherever as soon as the local BCU commander does. So does the MP. The MP raises the problem on the Floor of the House. The Home Secretary is naturally embarrassed and feels obliged to promise action without stopping to think about the reality; that local people know there is a problem and they do not need

15 Apr 2002 : Column 763

to be told. They do not like the problem any more than anyone else and they will already be taking action to put matters right. That is the answer to the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Corbett of Castle Vale.

I am grateful to noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. It has been a useful and important discussion. I return to the fundamental problem I mentioned at the beginning. There is increasing evidence, and reports are coming in increasingly across a number of government services, that the over-centralisation of administration is fundamentally damaging the provision of service to the public. The reason is simple: the perception of what is needed in the centre to remedy action in a place regarded as being a long way away is never the same as the perception in the place itself where they are dealing with the problem on a day-to-day basis.

Unfortunately that will always be so and we cannot escape it. That is why the clause is unacceptable. I have no hesitation or shame in asking to test the opinion of the House. It is entirely proper.

7.19 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 41) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 205; Not-Contents, 131.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS
Addington, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Belstead, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carrington, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chan, L.
Chester, Bp.
Chilver, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Dacre of Glanton, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Fearn, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Harris of Richmond, B. [Teller]
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Holderness, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Jacobs, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Ludford, B.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
O'Cathain, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Palumbo, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prior, L.
Pym, L.
Quinton, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Saatchi, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheppard of Didgemere, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stern, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Windlesham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Hampstead, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Currie of Marylebone, L.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Golding, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jones, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Manchester, Bp.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Orme, L.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Serota, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

15 Apr 2002 : Column 765

[Amendments Nos. 42 and 42A not moved.]

7.31 p.m.

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I beg to move that consideration on Report be adjourned during pleasure. In moving this Motion, perhaps I may suggest that the Report stage begin again not before 8.32 p.m.

15 Apr 2002 : Column 766

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

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