| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I shall give way in a moment. We provide the funding and we want more police but we do not set police numbers for each police force as in the old days, if I may put it that way. As a point of principle, therefore, a financial squeeze—I shall mention this matter in more detail later—is not a "runner".
Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, on a point of clarification, the police authority approves the relevant budget and the number of policemen. Although we had a 2.3 per cent rise in money from the Government, the police authority set a budget which was 14.3 per cent above—miles above—that set by the Government. Council tax payers pay for that extra policing. There is no doubt that a big rise in policing is paid for locally.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, nothing I said gainsays that. In a slip of the tongue I may have said that chief constables fix the budget. The police authority fixes the relevant budget. But it is at those two parts of the tripartite arrangement where that is fixed, not from the centre, as used to be the case. The noble Lord, Lord Waddington, mentioned financial pressure on numbers but that is not the case as regards what were described as "regular constables".
The noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, referred to a fundamental disagreement. I assume that the argument about finance is irrelevant to the fundamental disagreement he mentioned. I shall try to deal with some of the points that have been made about finance and the views of other police forces on the matter. Those views vary enormously. Our discussion on the matter has been shorter than in Committee when we had a wide-ranging debate. I now "home in" on the fairly fundamental approach of the amendments we are discussing.
Noble Lords should be aware from our earlier discussions why the Government want to allow chief officers to appoint properly trained and accountable
community support officers and give chief officers the option to extend to such individuals limited powers. The introduction of community support officers is a key element of the White Paper proposals and, indeed, figured as such when the White Paper was published in December last year. I accept that the introduction is a major innovation in the policing of this country. We are not trying to hide that fact; far from it; rather we celebrate the fact that it is a major innovation in policing in this country.Community support officers will boost the police presence on the ground, not replace it. They will help us provide higher visibility of authority figures. They will tackle challenging problems of anti-social behaviour in our communities, increase public reassurance and provide better intelligence gathering. Community support officers are in no way a replacement for regular police officers. They will not be allowed by the Home Secretary, the Treasury or anyone else to be a replacement for regular police officers; that is not their function. When we have reached the figure of 130,000, with the support of police authorities, the Home Secretary will, as I said in Committee, set a new overall target for the country. That is not a question of saying, "We have got to the plateau of 130,000. Bring in the community support officers and fix police numbers nationally". That is not our intention. We shall review the matter and fix a new overall target when we have reached the figure of 130,000.
Community support officers will complement rather than replace the police and they will be in addition to the Specials. We have debated the Specials and, regretfully, a decision has been taken, although we are taking action in respect of that. They will perform those functions that do not require the full powers and expertise of a police officer.
Community support officers will have a clearly focused role. They will specifically target low-level crime, anti-social behaviour and what might generally be called environmental problems. They will have a role to play in community regeneration and will free up police officers' time for those functions that require all of their training and skills. I shall soon give a couple of examples.
Anti-social behaviour is a serious problem that blights many communities. It ranges from graffiti and environmental problems to vandalism, bullying and harassment. All of those problems can make people's lives an absolute misery. However, in the grand scheme of things they are not the most important matters for the police—although that is not to suggest that they are ignored. Noble Lords will understand what I mean. Such low-level criminal activity alters people's standard of living—more so, in some ways, than bank robbery does. Bank robbery is a major crime but what are classed as low-level crimes can have a greater effect on people's lives.
Anti-social behaviour takes up a significant amount of police time but it is difficult for police forces always to provide an effective and targeted response. Community support officers who are based in
communities, on estates or in parts of boroughs will have a key role to play in deterring and tackling such anti-social behaviour.As the noble Lord, Lord Condon, said, the Metropolitan Police has been arguing strongly for the introduction of community support officers, particularly in view of the difficulties of providing high levels of security policing while fulfilling the public wish to see a widespread police presence tackling low level crimes and anti-social behaviour, which is in addition to other work.
The proposal to extend limited police powers to police authority employees—I stress that that is what they are—who are designated as community support officers is intended to enable chief officers to address those low-level crimes without taking skilled officers away from other duties. We remain of the view that the potential effectiveness of community support officers would be significantly and unnecessarily undermined if there was no possibility of their being granted certain limited and appropriate powers. The potential menu of powers in Schedule 4—I believe that it contains 13 separate powers, although I speak from memory and we shall discuss it later—is a proportionate and realistic response to the problem of anti-social behaviour.
The concept of community support officers is an enabling concept; it does not involve prescriptive legislation. It involves the flexibility necessary to respond to local needs and expectations. Issues are not the same all over the country or, indeed, within London. It allows, but does not require, chief officers to appoint support staff to provide a visible presence in the community, with powers that are sufficient to deal with minor disorder, if they—that is, chief officers—so choose.
It is important to remember that there are safeguards throughout this part of the Bill regarding both the designation of support staff and the exercise by them of limited police powers to ensure that powers are used appropriately. For example, it provides that chief officers must be satisfied that the person is suitable to carry out the relevant functions. They must be capable of carrying them out and they must be adequately trained. Community support officers will not be vigilantes or "have a go" characters in uniform; they will be properly trained and equipped professionals. They will be quality people. I regret some of the language that has been used in this regard. Reference has been made to diminishing the state of the police and diluting the quality of the people on the street. The fact is that professional people are involved.
The chief officer may modify or remove designation, including the powers conferred on community support officers at any time. Support staff, including community support officers, will be employed by a police authority and will be under the direction and control of the relevant chief officer. They will come within the remit of the independent police complaints commission, which we discussed in relation to Part 2
of the Bill, and they will be required to have regard to the Police and Criminal Evidence Act codes of practice.Community support officers are an essential part of reassurance policing. They will have a vital role to play in support of the police not only by tackling anti-social behaviour, as I said, but also by increasing public safety and contributing to community safety. They will enhance the relationship between the police and communities; they will not diminish it. They are an important part of the police family. They will boost the police presence on the ground and certainly improve police intelligence by providing more "eyes and ears" on the streets. The amendment would prevent our being able to complement the work of police officers.
Community support officers will have a much narrower role than that of regular police officers, which means that they are less likely to be redeployed when something serious happens. There is nothing more irritating for communities in some of our big cities, and even in rural areas, than when the local community police—the bobby and the "bobbess", if I can use politically correct language—are called away to another area because something has happened down the road. The expertise that they have built up would be absent for a week or a month. The local community bobby goes missing because he has been redeployed by the chief constable to another locality where a bigger police presence is required. It is less likely that community support officers will be redeployed in those circumstances, which is very important.
The amendments would condemn communities to the risk of the continual redeployment of "their" PC, and it would condemn central London police officers—the regular police officers—to having to maintain their anti-terrorism watch. Early this year, possibly when we were discussing the White Paper or perhaps during Second Reading, one of my noble friends said that some of the regular uniformed police officers were getting pretty bored with parts of their anti-terrorism role, which involved marching the streets of central London and being the eyes and ears of the police. Moreover, they were being taken away from areas in which they would have been much more effectively used deploying their full police powers. It is very important to point out that the police officer gets fantastic training and that we want to be able to use all of that training in the circumstances in which police officers are required. Community support officers will be much more narrowly focused. They will be trained but will not be sent into areas or asked to perform roles for which they are not trained.
The proposal to remove the relevant provisions from the Bill implies that the Opposition Front Bench is saying that it cannot trust chief officers to make the right decisions for their areas. We think that chief officers are the best people to make those decisions, in consultation with their police authorities. We are trusting and enabling chief officers to make those local decisions. We are not saying that chief officers have to
have community support officers. We are saying that they can have community support officers if they believe that that is in the interests of their area.This is not policing on the cheap. Community support officers will not replace police officers. As I said, the Government are committed to an overall target for police numbers. When we reach that, we shall set a new target.
It is worth reminding noble Lords of Diary of a Police Officer, which was published last year and which I and other noble Lords quoted in, I believe, Committee. The research on which it was based showed that the average bobby spent 43 per cent of his or her day in the police station. Only 17 per cent of a patrol officer's time was spent out on the street. There must be a better way to organise matters so that quality police officers are used in a full policing role and, in areas where the full role is not required and where eyes and ears are required for low-level activities, other quality trained people are used.
The noble Lord, Lord Elton, and, indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Condon, referred to other police forces. I agree that mixed views are held. Assuming that Parliament places the powers into the Bill and that they are available to chief officers, I suspect—I do not know because I have not held any individual discussions—that if the Met is first out of the starting gate on this issue, it will almost form a pilot project. Obviously London does not represent England; that is true. Nevertheless, it will almost form a pilot.
It is not true that only the Met is keen on this proposal. However, from the caveats that have been given—I am happy to place some of them on the record—I also accept that some chief officers and, indeed, police authorities, say on the one hand, "We'll have them if we cannot have more police officers", while, on the other hand, in some areas a chief officer wants them but the police authority does not. For example, the chief constable in Northamptonshire is discussing with his police authority the possibility of piloting a rural version of community support officers in the force area. Such a pilot in an urban situation would provide a nice contrast to that of the Met. I agree that the chief constable of Nottinghamshire has indicated that he will be keen to pursue the option in his force. That is interesting.
The noble Lord, Lord Elton, who is not in his place, mentioned that the chief constables, police authority chairmen and clerks of Cheshire, Cumbria, Greater Manchester, Lancashire, Merseyside and North Wales said that they believe the issue would be eroded by the application of centrally held, ring-fenced funding. They wanted local discretion, whereas the chief constable of Nottinghamshire indicated that he wanted to pursue the option provided that the Government made available ring-fenced funding for community support officers.
Therefore, on the one hand, some chief constables and police authorities are saying, "This is great if the funding is ring-fenced"; on the other hand, others are saying, "This is great. If it is not ring-fenced, then we have local discretion". Therefore, the idea that a
uniform pattern is to be laid down by central government is absolute nonsense. I believe that we must get the thrust of the overall enabling policy correct on the face of the Bill. We must then allow local decision-making within the context of making it absolutely clear that these will not be replacement, alternative police officers; they will be complementary and additional to police officers. If that is set as the parameter, I believe that that is where the fundamentals can be agreed.The chief constable of Warwickshire said that he would support the introduction of community support officers as proposed in the Bill. He went on to say in an analogous way that we have seen the benefit of classroom assistants, and the National Health Service benefited from auxiliary nurses. He also made a point in relation to funding. I accept the caveats about funding, which forms a key element. In Lincolnshire, I understand that the chief constable has indicated that he personally supports the proposal, but his police authority has indicated that it is not in favour. Therefore, there will be a mixed bag of views.
The whole point is that this clause and this concept of the legislation—I am trying to stick to the central point—is enabling. No one will be forced to implement the proposal. Those concerned will be professional people of quality who are properly trained. They will not be alternative police officers. Their powers will be extremely limited but nevertheless extremely valuable at local level.
I shall run through a few of the provisions; I shall not list them all: the issue of fixed-penalty notices in respect of offences of disorder; fixed-penalty notices for dog fouling, littering and riding on the pavement; the power to use reasonable force to detain a person to prevent him from making off—a fair point has been made in relation to that because the other accredited people will not have that power; the power to confiscate alcohol from young people; the power to confiscate cigarettes; the power of entry to save life or limb or to prevent serious damage to property; the power to stop vehicles for the purposes of a road check; and the power, established under the Terrorism Act 2000, to maintain and enforce a cordoned area.
Quite clearly in those circumstances the police would be on the case. However, in respect of maintaining the enforcement of a cordoned area, one could ask, "Is that what we really want or do we want the officers to investigate a terrorist offence?" It would be ideal to use properly trained uniformed officers, as they would be, who were part of the police family and employed by the chief constable, to maintain a cordoned area. It would be ideal for such officers to have the power, under the Terrorism Act, to stop and search vehicles and items carried by drivers and passengers and items carried by pedestrians, but not to search them, in the company of, and supervised by, a constable. Therefore, one constable together with several community support officers would be able to do the job with the power to stop and search vehicles.
No one can argue that this does not appear to be a good idea. It may be said, "Well, no, we do not want any staff". I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord
Dixon-Smith, was not arguing about detention officers and escort officers. But, fundamentally, the same arguments could be made because of the powers that they will have, designated by the chief officer. Therefore, I believe that one can take a broad sweep approach to this issue and say, "Let's trust the chief constables".It is for the Home Office and the Home Secretary to get the mechanism right in respect of our spending review and the allocation of resources. We want this proposal to work. It is a flagship policy—I make no apology to noble Lords for that—both in the White Paper and in the Bill. It is our job to ensure that resources are available in order to get the policy on the road so that it can be seen to work by other police forces.
It is clear that not all 43 police forces will have community support officers. Certainly they will not all have them straightaway. However, we want to provide the opportunity for chief officers who see the proposal as a good use of quality professional time to expend effort on training and recruiting such staff in order to augment and complement their existing police forces. Although I see that a fundamental difference of opinion exists, I hope that if the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, presses the matter to a vote it will be seen that the proposal has a great deal of force. The Home Office is not being at all prescriptive because this is enabling legislation.
4.15 p.m.
Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, the Minister has argued long and forcefully in favour of the Government's proposals. I am bound to say that we must take into consideration what he has said. I commence by saying how pleasing it is that we have achieved a far more focused debate than we did in Committee at this stage when we confused community support officers with accredited support officers. As a result, the debate became quite difficult to follow. We have trespassed into that area once or twice with noble Lords mentioning the possibility of accredited situations in "borough police forces". I believe that we should keep off that issue and deal with it in later discussions on the Bill when appropriate. But, frankly, I find the phraseology used rather frightening.
Perhaps I may deal with the canard of trusting chief officers of police. We do not question their integrity or anything else when we argue against these proposals. I have absolute confidence that, if this power is brought into law, chief officers of police will exercise it with the utmost responsibility. I have no hesitation in saying that. Let us put that to one side. However, there is an issue of principle.
Another point raised by the Minister which caused me a certain amount of concern but which is, in a sense, a diversion, is the boredom of professional policemen with their anti-terrorism responsibilities in London. I was not sure whether, implicit in those remarks, was the suggestion that community support officers might be deemed to be appropriate to do that work. I am even less certain of the reaction of the
diplomatic community if that were to take place. Perhaps we could hear about that matter at a later stage.
| Next Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |