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Earl Attlee: My Lords, my concern remains that the little darlings will understand the law very well and will fully understand the limitations of the accredited person. However, I thank the Minister for his considered response and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 206 to 211 not moved.]
Clause 37 [Supplementary provisions relating to designations and accreditations]:
[Amendments Nos. 212 to 218 not moved.]
Earl Attlee moved Amendment No. 219:
- Leave out Clause 38.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 219, I shall also speak to Amendments Nos. 222, 223, 224 and 225. I also remind the House that I have an interest as I am the president of the Heavy Transport Association.
Clause 38 allows traffic wardens to stop individual vehicles as opposed to merely directing traffic as at present. The two main trade associations—the Road Haulage Association and the Freight Transport Association—have expressed concerns about the provision which centre on the scope for unnecessary interference in the transport industry. My view is that enforcement of road traffic law is vital for road safety. Moreover, by and large, the authorities know who the rogues are. I believe that those elements should be kept out of the industry and not givenmany chances. I am therefore extremely grateful for the progress being made on the impounding of illegally operated goods vehicles.
The Minister would say that it is desirable to use traffic wardens so that more checks can be conducted. However, I believe that it is desirable to restrict the number of checks by ensuring the availability of police officers.
There is another worry. The objective of stopping vehicles is to facilitate enforcement checks. Inevitably, however, such checks will—or should—focus on very unsavoury characters. As we all know, the police are very well trained and are robust characters. Conversely, I have some anxiety—but only some—that traffic wardens may avoid stopping the most difficult customers.
There is yet another concern. One of the customers at a multi-agency check could become difficult, perhaps because his vehicle is being impounded. I believe that the presence of a uniformed police officer would calm down such situations.
Finally, if we must have Clause 38—I shall not oppose it very strongly—it will have to be made an offence to impersonate a traffic warden. The 1996 Act makes it anoffence to impersonate a police officer, and the Bill will make it an offence to impersonate a community support officer. However, what legislation makes it an offence to impersonate a traffic warden? I beg to move.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, this is an interesting grouplet of amendments. The noble Earl seems to have placed an each-way bet by the way in which he has approached them.
Currently, traffic wardens can stop traffic only if they are assisting a constable, believe that a traffic offence has been committed, or if they are engaged in directing traffic. Clause 38 is designed to remove that restriction and thus to extend the range of duties that traffic wardens can perform. The clause will ensure that it is no longer necessary to call on police officers to stop vehicles when that is the only police power required. We believe that that will help to reduce unnecessary burdens on the police, an objective to which the noble Earl and Conservative Front-Benchers have previously signed up.
The clause will, among other things, enable traffic wardens to escort abnormal loads. To do that—in addition to the power to direct, which they already have—they will require a power to stop other vehicles. The noble Earl is, I know, keen to facilitate arrangements for escorting abnormal loads; he has long harried me on that issue. He is also keen to ensure that such arrangements do not unnecessarily involve the police. We believe that Clause 38 is very helpful in that respect. The noble Earl himself has previously very much welcomed the clause for the same reason.
The clause is not the whole answer to the issue of abnormal loads, and we are continuing to examine that issue. Nevertheless, the clause will be helpful both for that purpose and for other purposes, such as traffic censuses. For that reason, and for others, we think that it is very important that it should remain in the Bill.
The noble Earl has raised another interesting little issue in this group of amendments: the whole business of impersonating traffic wardens. We have some sympathy with the intention behind the amendments, which seek essentially to put traffic wardens in the same position as designated and accredited persons. I
see the train of logic behind the proposal. However, impersonation of a traffic warden has not previously been thought to merit a specific offence. Moreover, we have received no representations from either the traffic wardens' representatives or the Association of Chief Police Officers that it should become one.The Bill does not greatly extend traffic wardens' powers as they can already stop vehicles in some circumstances. Extending that power is the only change being introduced. Moreover, if impersonation facilitates the commission of an offence, it would be the substantive offence that is most significant. I think that that is probably the most important point.
Amendment No. 225 also contains an illogicality. Although it would not protect all traffic wardens from assaults, resistance or obstruction, it would protect those who had been designated community support officers even if the duty they were performing at the time was identical. Where a traffic warden is acting as a community support officer and using community support officer powers as opposed to traffic warden powers, he is already protected by the Bill as currently drafted. I think that that should offer the noble Earl some assurance.
Traffic wardens have their own legislation, and if new provisions are required we think that they should be introduced by reference to that. Before deciding that any change is desirable, we would like to consider the current position and consult as necessary particularly with interested parties such as traffic wardens' representatives. Immediate action now by means of the noble Earl's amendments would not be the best way forward. We should like to consider his proposals in the context of other proposals which would emerge from consultation.
Therefore, as public spirited and well-intentioned as some of these amendments are, we think that it would be best to address the issue as part of an overall package rather than in a fragmented way, as the amendments propose. In view of those remarks, I hope that the noble Earl will feel able to withdraw Amendment No. 219.
6.15 p.m.
Earl Attlee: My Lords, perhaps I should apologise for the drafting of my amendment. However, I am a little surprised that the Government are making it an offence to impersonate an accredited person whose powers are very limited while not dealing with the apparent lack—which the Minister has recognised is a problem—of an offence of impersonating a traffic warden. A traffic warden will be able to go into the middle of a main road and raise his hand to stop a vehicle and the driver of that vehicle will have to stop. The industry is concerned that that could be the prelude to a hijacking. A goods vehicle driver could be carrying a high-value load when someone appearing to be a traffic warden steps out and says to stop. He would have to stop because the law says that he must,
but it could place him in a hijack situation. That is the industry's concern, and I suspect that the various trade associations will get quite excited about it.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I thought that I had indicated sufficiently clearly to the noble Earl that I believe he has a point. Obviously we shall consider the issue. I was trying to make the point that the idiosyncrasy he has highlighted is apparent and that we shall have to examine it.
Earl Attlee: My Lords, the Minister should not get me wrong; I am extremely grateful for his response. I am just a little surprised that the Government are significantly increasing traffic wardens' powers while not making it an offence to impersonate them. In view of his response, I shall certainly not press the issue today. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 39 [Power to amend Chapter 1]:
Lord Dixon-Smith moved Amendment No. 220:
- Leave out Clause 39.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Clause 39 is a very good Henry VIII clause. It states:
- "The Secretary of State may by order modify the provisions of Schedule 4 by . . . amending or repealing any provision of that Schedule . . . adding powers or duties ... specified in that Schedule as applicable ... to a designated person".
- "The Secretary of State may by order modify the provisions of Schedule 5 so as to authorise the conferring or imposition, on an accredited person, of powers and duties in addition to those contained in Schedule 5".
There is an interesting class distinction there between community support officers, who may have their powers added to or deleted, and accredited persons, who can only have them added to. I find that a little bit fascinating. One goes on through the clause. There are some restrictions in subsection (5) with which I shall not bother the House. One finally finds a gracious concession at the end of this Henry VIII clause; namely, that,
- "The Secretary of State shall not make an order containing . . . any provision authorised by this section unless a draft of that order has been laid before Parliament and approved by a resolution of each House".
I had to try to work out in my mind whether Schedules 4 and 5 were drafted so that the Government could draft Clause 39. I cannot think of any other reason for drafting Schedules 4 and 5. Whether we approve Schedules 4 or 5 does not matter so long as Clause 39 is in the Bill because Clause 39 gives the Minister the power in effect to alter the decision of Parliament. That is an interesting situation in which to find ourselves, but it is not appropriate. If we are to pass the Bill, we should be clear as to its contents and accept that Parliament will have to supervise any orders that are made. However, the degree of supervision of an order is much less than we apply to a Bill. Orders of this nature would probably be made without a great deal of supervision as they would be described as non-controversial. I do not think that this
is an appropriate clause to find in the Bill. I am disappointed that it is there and I am amazed at the lack of confidence of Ministers as regards their ability to draft appropriately in the first place the two schedules that I am discussing. I beg to move.
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