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Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, I speak to Amendment No. 269 which stands in my name. I tabled the amendment to address the situation in Milton Keynes. The noble Lord referred to Milton Keynes, for which I thank him.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendment No. 269 not moved.]
Clause 81 [Secretary of State's functions in relation to strategies]:
Lord Dixon-Smith moved Amendment No. 270:
- Page 73, line 23, leave out "include" and insert "take account of"
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 270 and 271 return to a familiar theme. Clause 81 deals with the powers of the Secretary of State and the National Assembly for Wales in relation to local crime reduction plans. New Section 6A(1)(a) states:
- "The responsible authorities for local government areas to formulate any section 6 strategy of theirs for the reduction of crime and disorder so as to include".
- "The responsible authorities for local government areas in England to prepare any section 6 strategy of theirs for combatting the misuse of drugs so as to include".
- "to take account within the"
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I understand the spirit in which the amendment is moved. It is not the Secretary of State's intention to dictate. Our Secretary of State is not like that and I cannot imagine future Secretaries of State behaving in that way. I am sure that the noble Lord recognises that.
Of course we recognise that not every crime and reduction partnership area will have identical crime priorities. However, I think noble Lords will accept that some types of crime are of concern in almost every area. Anti-social behaviour is a prime example of that. A review of the crime and disorder reduction strategies published in 1999 showed that 42 per cent of partnerships set targets to deal with criminal damage and graffiti. Therefore, there was a degree of commonality. Similarly, there is widespread concern about young people and crime. I believe that we are all aware of that. Again, we find that in 1999 only 22 per cent of partnerships set targets to tackle youth crime in their area. However, that would probably feature as one of the more important issues.
We need to tackle those crimes which most concern the public and which are happening in our communities, in our streets and in our areas. There is no contradiction so far as we are concerned between addressing locally perceived needs and those that we
have identified as being important nationwide. It is not a matter of dealing with one or the other—we need a twin-track approach; we need to tackle both. In that situation, we need a system that reflects local priorities but which also takes account of national priorities and ensures that they are properly addressed.Guidance will be issued accompanying the issuing of any order informing responsible authorities of any specific area or areas of crime they must address. That guidance will require that they must look at that area of crime and determine the nature and scale of the problem in their area. If they are satisfied, through their audit (which they have to undertake) and community consultation process (most of us would argue that it is essential), that the specified area of crime or disorder is not a priority for action in their area, the partnership would not be required to set targets in that area. However, the partnership would have to be able to justify omitting the specified area of crime or disorder from their strategy. That is essential: consultation and investigation—looking at the issues—will be an important part of enabling them to make the case.
This matter involves a balance between the local and the national. It is important that the material is there to justify the case for omitting a particular anti-social activity, criminal area or acts of disorder from their plans. There is flexibility. The noble Lord's point is very important but we believe that we have got the balance about right. That is always difficult but we believe that the line is drawn in the right place.
I hope that those reassuring words from this side of the Dispatch Box will enable the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
9 p.m.
Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, the Minister may be right, but I was fascinated by his argument. He began by demonstrating that crime reduction partnerships were behaving responsibly and were hitting the right targets. Then he said that despite that, the Home Office did not really have confidence in that respect and that they should have regard to what the Home Office was saying. He further went on to say that if they could prove that the Home Office was wrong in their particular area, they could disregard that. That leaves me in a slight state of confusion. However, the House will be glad to hear that I intend to study the Minister's reply. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 271 not moved.]
Clause 86 [Liability in respect of members of teams]:
Lord Rooker moved Amendment No. 272:
- Page 80, line 27, leave out "In Scotland"
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the amendment and those grouped with it are technical amendments, on which I need not spend much time. They relate to subsection (7). They simply reflect the fact that the Secretary of State will not receive in Scotland funds from abroad by way of compensation but would
receive such funds from abroad to be reimbursed to the Scottish Ministers for payment to the police authority in Scotland or the joint police board in Scotland. The clause relates to the legal basis for civil liabilities arising from joint operations with joint investigation teams involving police officers from any part of the UK and law enforcement officers from abroad.On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Rooker moved Amendments Nos. 273 and 274:
- Page 80, line 28, after "authority" insert "in Scotland"
- Page 80, line 29, after "board" insert "there"
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Lord Carlile of Berriew moved Amendment No. 275:
- After Clause 87, insert the following new clause—
POWERS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY FOR WALES
(1) References to the Secretary of State in Part 2 of the Police Act 1996 (c. 16) and in Part 1 of this Act shall, in relation to the police areas in Wales, have effect as references to the National Assembly for Wales and references to England and Wales shall, where appropriate, have effect as references to England or Wales.
(2) Every power conferred upon the National Assembly for Wales by this Act shall be exercised in accordance with the Government of Wales Act 1998 (c. 38)."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the amendment stands in the name of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford. I hope that the select band of noble Lords who are currently present will forgive a short Welsh interlude. I introduce it with the apologies of my noble friend, who is currently spreading hwyl around the People's Republic of China. I hope that I might spread a little chwarae teg into the Home Office.
The aim of the amendment is to transfer responsibility for policing to the National Assembly for Wales—to the Welsh Assembly Government, as it is now called. Our argument is that responsibility in full for public order and policing should cease to be a reserved matter. We argue that the Welsh Assembly Government have shown themselves to be a responsible organisation who are capable of handling very big issues and that policing should be one of the issues within their area of responsibility.
The National Assembly for Wales, as the House knows, has responsibility for many issues that are key to public order and the smooth running of Wales and Welsh society. I refer most notably in this context to housing, health and education.
We submit that it is consistent with the evolution of devolution and with the natural process of evolution that I believe everyone accepts that Welsh devolution can reasonably anticipate for progress to be made in reducing the number of reserved matters. We suggest that policing is one of those matters that should be within the responsibility of the 60 Members elected by the people of Wales to the Assembly.
We also argue that we can offer something of an enticement to the Home Office in suggesting that Welsh policing should become the responsibility of the Assembly. That enticement can be summed up in one word: "progress". The Government know how extremely difficult it is to fight turf wars on every possible front and from every angle while every police force in existence seeks to argue that it is part of the holy grail of policing that there should be a separate police force for Lwmshire or Llanlwmshire, or wherever it happens to be. The Home Office knows only too well—at times the Home Secretary seemed to express entirely understandable frustration about this—that moving ahead on changing police areas or obtaining much greater efforts against corruption in police forces and co-operation with regard to police forces is heavily dependent on change taking place. Change has been very slow.
I suggest that if the Welsh Assembly took responsibility for policing, as with other aspects of key policy, it has the capacity and courage to move forward and make progress. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that, just as the courts have developed a stronger Welsh identity on an all-Wales basis and just as the Crown Prosecution Service—although these are still reserved matters—has developed a stronger Welsh identity on the basis of change and of looking at Wales as a credible critical mass for these public purposes, policing would be likely to receive the same treatment if it was moved from the Home Office to the Assembly.
There is absolutely no basis for suggesting that the Assembly would not co-operate with the policing strategy set by Her Majesty's Government. We know that police forces which are controlled within Scotland have co-operated entirely with Home Office strategy in so far as that can reasonably be expected. Indeed, I suggest that the progress of the Strathclyde police force as effectively a large regional police service is something of an analogy which might be used in Wales, whether the Assembly was to retain the present number of police forces with greater co-operative structures or reduce the number to one, two or three.
Therefore, in this amendment we suggest that there is a very strong argument for moving responsibility for policing to Wales. One of the greatest advantages of doing so would be that it would be far more transparent and accountable. One reason that the Assembly is becoming far more accepted within Wales, from, it must be admitted, a very slow start, is that the public in Wales are seeing daily accountability for matters which were never accountable under the pre-devolution system. The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, will remember how Welsh Questions in the other place used to be simply a set piece with little meaning. I am sure that he used to attend occasionally on a Monday afternoon just for the entertainment of Welsh Questions.
The issues which in my time in the other place used to be something of a joke at Welsh Questions and even in the Welsh Grand Committee are given the most serious consideration and much time in the Welsh Assembly. I believe that that should have happened in
I hope that the Home Office will be more than the megalith which it is sometimes seen to be. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, is now a very effective keystone in that megalith. But I hope that from time to time the occupants of the odd room may be shed to some distant part of the planet, or at least the United Kingdom, and that we shall see a little movement towards the devolution of policing. Indeed, I hope that we shall see similar Home Office responsibilities devolved to the people of Wales and to the elected government within Wales. I beg to move.
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