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Earl Ferrers: My Lords, I am most grateful. I wanted to complain about that and table a Question, but I was told that I could not do so because that would be poaching on House of Commons territory.

Baroness Michie of Gallanach: My Lords, I live and learn. It seems that we are not allowed to poach on House of Commons territory.

The noble Lord, Lord Monro, talked about Liberal Democrats and what little influence they have in the Scottish Parliament. That is absolute nonsense. If we were not engaged in a partnership government, there would be no stability in the Scottish Parliament. What would everyone be saying then? Perhaps, "This is dreadful: the Labour Government trying to rule as a minority party, with things going wrong from day to day and from week to week". We have had an

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enormous influence on that Parliament. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Mackie of Benshie pointed out the particular influences that we have had on, for example, student fees, on care for the elderly, on freedom of information, and so on. I give way.

Lord Monro of Langholm: My Lords, the noble Baroness is most kind. However, I disagree with her on the question of whether the Liberal Democrats have the influence that I would have expected of them when they are in such a position of power. The present Labour Government in Scotland could not manage without the support of the Liberal Democrats. I should have thought that they would use their influence to reduce the flow of some of the socialist legislation that we all find so unattractive.

Baroness Michie of Gallanach: My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that we have done so. Indeed, there could have been much more socialist legislation passing through the Scottish Parliament. However, that is unlikely with a minority government.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, talked about a low turnout in referendums. I should remind him that the House of Commons government is always elected on a minority vote. The people of this country accept that, although it is not particularly democratic.

I think that the noble Lord also complained about the design and the cost of the new building for the Parliament. I am glad that my noble friend Lord Mackie of Benshie pointed out that that decision was made at Westminster, not by Members of the Scottish Parliament. People go on about how much it costs and say that it is disgraceful that it has cost £300 million—or whatever it is. That building will last for many years and will house Scottish democracy. It will not be a cheap building. Did we ever hear about the overrun in costs for Portcullis House, the British Library or the Dome? Why did we not hear about that?

Noble Lords: We did.

Baroness Michie of Gallanach: We did hear about the Dome? Good.

The salaries of MSPs have been described as obscene. MSPs have a large workload. There is all the constituency work and all the business relating to education, housing, transport and so on. The salaries were decided by an independent pay review body, which recommended that that was what the Members should be paid. I hope that we will remember that it is considerably less than what Westminster MPs are paid. I remember how there were always rows in the other place when we had to vote on salaries recommended by an independent review body.

I looked up the noble Lord's biographical details. I discovered that he had listed hunting, shooting and gardening as his recreations. I wondered whether the Bill had been triggered by his annoyance at the fact that the Scottish Parliament had had the temerity to legislate to ban fox hunting. Will the noble Lord's next logical move be to introduce a Bill for a referendum to

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abolish the House of Commons when it votes to ban fox hunting later this year, as I am sure that it will? Some would say that that would not be a bad idea.

I am sorry that the noble Lord seems to have joined those in this House and in the other place who, together with parts of the press and media, never wanted the Scottish Parliament in the first place. They routinely denigrate and insult the institution and its Members. They have an anti-devolution and anti-Scottish agenda. Fair criticism is justified, but it should not be offensive, as it has been in the press, in particular.

We do not want to hear gratuitous abuse. We are dubbed, by the London press in particular, "subsidy junkies" and "whingeing Jocks". It all culminated recently in the shameful reporting in the London press of the Scottish women's curling team's success at the Winter Olympics. Incidentally, your Lordships may not have noticed that we have since gone on to win the world championships and the gold medal in North Dakota. None of that has really been reported, but that is understandable: Beckham's metatarsal—his toe—is much more important to this part of the country.

The denigration that has gone on in the press—including the Scottish press—is neither sensible nor helpful. It is extremely damaging. I am not sure what the noble Lord is suggesting—that the Scottish Parliament should be abolished and we return to Westminster, to the old ways? Heaven forbid. If the noble Lord had ever attended Scottish Questions in the other place, he would know that we were allowed only one hour a month to question Scottish Office Ministers on serious matters such as our own health service, our own education service and our own legal system. Those Questions were always a fortnight out of date. It was almost impossible to put distinctive Scottish legislation on to the statute book in any one year.

The noble Lord has also suggested that, according to press reports, things are running out of control. I do not understand what he means by that. Has he visited the Scottish Parliament? On the contrary, at last we have been able to address the real issues. Many Bills have been introduced, of which 30 are now on the statute book. Noble Lords may not agree with them all, but that is democracy.

The Scottish Parliament has brought legislation close to the people, based on openness, accessibility and the sharing of power. That has been strengthened by the ability of the public to petition the Parliament. Over 300 petitions have been dealt with by the Petitions Committee, instead of disappearing into a bag at the back of the Speaker's Chair, never to be heard of again, as was the case during my time in the other place. If the noble Lord mustered sufficient signatures, he could petition the Scottish Parliament to abolish itself. That would certainly save the cost of holding a referendum.

Perhaps I may briefly remind the noble Lord of what happened in the beginning. The Treaty of Union in 1707 was supposed to be a union of the two

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Parliaments, but in fact it was a grafting on, an incorporation of the Scottish Parliament into the English one. Scots were to send 16 Peers and 45 Commoners to join the 190 Peers and 513 Commoners already there. The introduction of the Alien Act 1700 and the threat to the cattle and linen trades were the methods used to tighten the screw. Those, together with bribery and corruption both north and south of the Border, ended the Scottish Parliament. As Robert Burns put it in the oft-quoted lines:


    "We're bought and sold for English gold,

sic a parcel o' rogues in a nation". Those rogues were in the Scottish nation. A sorry tale indeed.

There was deep anger and opposition to that foolish move, as demonstrated by the arguments in the Scottish Parliament and the riots that took place in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dumfries. If a referendum had been held at the time, the Parliament would not have been lost. From then on it was downhill all the way, at least for a section of the Scottish population, with the deliberate and systematic destruction of an entire people, their culture and language in the Highlands of Scotland gone, never to return.

From that time on, the campaign began for the restoration of the parliament. It became firm Liberal policy. We won the 1979 referendum, subsequently dismissed by the Thatcher government. Some 25,000 of us marched in Edinburgh in the early 1990s, and at last there was a resounding "Yes, Yes" vote in 1997.

I pay tribute to the Labour Party for having served with us and many other groups for well nigh on seven years in the Constitutional Convention, which resulted in the White Paper and the Scotland Act 1998, brought to Parliament by the late lamented Donald Dewar. I would remind this House that the Tories refused to take part, as did the SNP. To be fair, one or two individual Conservatives and one or two individual SNP members served on the convention, but officially they would not take part and they would not discuss the future of Scotland.

What of the future? I say to the Labour Government, lighten up a little; do not be so timid; allow Scotland to become truly entrepreneurial and the Parliament to be really responsible and accountable. That means having access to all of Scotland's resources. The aim should be to develop the economy to the stage where it does not have to come to London every year for its block grant and we do not have to go through what happens on a yearly basis where everyone complains about what Scotland gets in the block grant.

It means fiscal autonomy. Why, I say to the Labour Government, be so afraid of it? It is nonsense to suggest that it would mean Scotland walking away and becoming independent. It would simply mean economic freedom to use all of our own considerable resources and to remit to London what is due for agreed common UK services. You can look to Spain for examples of that.

I say to the Government think big; think exciting. Go for regional devolution in England. Free up the regions so that they have a real stake in the economic

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development in each area. Move towards a federal United Kingdom government, even if it means taking on Liberal Democrat policy.

Central government in London is so restrictive, so suffocating, so overpowering. I believe that Pierre Trudeau in relation to Canada and America and Ludovic Kennedy in relation to Scotland and England likened their respective countries to "being in bed with an elephant".

I believe that the rekindling of political interest in the country depends on the decentralisation of power. Indeed, the proper delivery of public services also may well depend on it. The Government have the opportunity and the majority, but do they have the political will to build a new national interest based on honesty, humility and freedom?

I say one final thing: we will never, ever again give up our Scottish Parliament.

9.37 p.m.

Lady Saltoun of Abernethy: My Lords, I, too, am grateful to my noble friend Lord Palmer for introducing the Bill because, whatever the Bill's fate or the pros and cons of holding a referendum on the continued existence of the Scottish Parliament, he has given the House the opportunity of discussing it, which some of us have been longing to do for some time.

I shall first say a word or two about the Parliament building. When the Scotland Bill was passing through this House, there was a lot of discussion in Scotland as to where the proposed Scottish Parliament building should be. Many people in Scotland were in favour of adapting the old high school—which had been prepared for the Parliament which never materialised in 1979—a very fine traditional building with a fine debating chamber which harmonised with its surroundings. Extra office space and other facilities would have been required, but these would not have presented an insurmountable obstacle. However, the late Donald Dewar, the Secretary of State for Scotland, had other ideas. The reason he gave for not using the old high school was that at the cost of an estimated £40 million to revamp it, it would be too expensive. Other reasonably priced possibilities were also rejected.

So the world was trawled for architects who would compete for the contract to build a new Parliament, as if there were not excellent home-grown architects in Scotland and as if it could ever conceivably have been feasible to buy a site, prepare it, and then build a Parliament for less than £40 million.

The usual public sector "quest for safety" in the choice of design went out of the window in a politically correct rejection of traditional style in favour of the avant-garde design of a Spanish architect—first estimated cost £108 million. As many of your Lordships are aware, the cost had risen to £266 million in March, and that is only what official channels are prepared to admit to. Recent press reports have suggested that £280 million would be nearer the mark, and Mr David Black, an architectural correspondent

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who has written extensively on the project, has suggested that the final cost may well be around £340 million. Our Parliament does not penny-pinch when it comes to spending on itself, although it could not afford to compensate people put out of work by its Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Bill.

To return to the design of the Parliament, the original design, which did have some cohesion, has been enlarged, so that it is now a conglomeration of buildings of questionable aesthetic appeal. Luckily, it is not up on a hill, but down in a hollow, where the visitor to Edinburgh can avoid seeing it; otherwise it might well join that list of buildings, such as the Chateau Frontenac Hotel in Quebec, the Alhambra Palace Hotel in Granada and the Victor Emmanuel Memorial in Rome, which it is best to be either in or on, because that is the only place from which you cannot see them. That, of course, will not present any problem to the MSPs, who will be cosily holed up inside, with imported oak panelling and so forth.

The Scottish Executive consists of the First Minister, 11 other Ministers and 10 junior Ministers—22 in all. The First Minister gets a salary of £69,000 a year; the 11 other Ministers get £36,000, and the 10 junior Ministers get £22,000. These salaries are on top, of course, of their salaries of £48,000 as MSPs. And of course, there is still the Secretary of State for Scotland at Westminster, and the Solicitor General for Scotland.

The noble Lord, Lord Monro of Langholm, asked why it is necessary to have 22—no, 23—Ministers to do the job which was done by five Ministers, plus the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General in the days of the previous government. I dare say Secretaries of State, Ministers and Parliamentary Under-Secretaries worked harder in those days. The noble Lord was one, so he should know. Some were friends of mine, and I know that they worked very hard indeed. Perhaps it is right that they should not have to work quite as hard as their predecessors did. But still—a fourfold increase! It is a bit much. I cannot help feeling that quite a few people are doing very nicely thank you at the expense of the Scottish people.

I turn to the size of the Scottish Parliament. Now the question has arisen, as we always knew it would, of the number of Scottish MPs at Westminster being reduced, and the number of MSPs being reduced as well. Views have been sought from various bodies in Scotland on the practicality of this. I am sorry to have to say that the only people who seem to have the common sense to support a reduction are those in the Scottish Conservative Party. From all the others, including the Scottish National Party and an amorphous body called UNISON, we get a chorus of bleating to the effect that the parliament will not be able to do its job properly; it will not be able to man the various committees; family friendly working practices will suffer and so will equal opportunities. It really is pathetic. Equal opportunities should mean what it says, not special mollycoddling for women. At this rate, your Lordships will be expecting to be mollycoddled next! Committee members would have to bear an increased burden. And, horror of horrors,

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certain subjects could be marginalised. If that means what I think it does, so much the better—because what I think it means is that nasty Nanny Executive would not be able to find time for quite so much unwanted, unnecessary, intrusive and unenforceable legislation—such as the Bill to prevent people smacking their children if they are under three (the children, not the people!), and a great many people in Scotland would be a lot happier.

Let us do a little arithmetic. Reducing the number of MSPs, at £48,000, from 129 to 108 would save £1,008,000 a year. Sacking five Ministers would save £180,000 and sacking five junior Ministers, at £22,000 each, would save another £110,000. That makes £1,300,000, taking no account of their expenses, office space and other hidden costs. I accept that that is not an enormous sum in the total budget, but it would all help.

I return to pre-legislative scrutiny, which the noble Earl, Lord Errol, mentioned. When the Scotland Bill was passing through this House, a good deal of concern was expressed that, with no second chamber, ill-thought-out and half scrutinised legislation would result. We were assured by Ministers that that would not be the case, because all Bills would receive pre-legislative scrutiny in committee and the Parliament would incorporate the committee's amendments into the Bill. Those assurances were not worth the breath that they were spoken with, as the rejection of the scrutiny committee's recommendations on the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Bill has proved. I know that that is the only occasion so far on which that has happened, but it is frightening that it can happen and a very dangerous precedent has been set.

To end with, I do not for one moment believe that the people of Scotland want to give up their Parliament or would dream of voting to do so. However, I believe that many would like a leaner, meaner Parliament that would put the real interests of Scotland first, instead of their own interests and political dogma.

9.46 p.m.

Lord MacKenzie of Culkein: My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, for giving us the opportunity to debate issues relating to the Scottish Parliament this evening. This is a matter about which I have felt very strongly since my first political awakening when, as a youngster, I used to listen to my father advancing arguments in favour of a devolved parliament in Edinburgh dealing with Scottish matters. Like me subsequently, he had no time for the notion or the nonsense of Scotland becoming an independent state. I have been a supporter of devolved government in Edinburgh for the better part of 45 or 50 years, during times when the idea was politically unpopular, even in my own party, which, in the immediate post-war years, forgot its earlier pro-devolution stance.

It was with huge delight that I saw the outcome of the 1997 referendum, when the Scottish people voted by a majority of almost 75 per cent to approve that there should be a Scottish Parliament. That is an overwhelming majority by any standards.

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That parliament came into being less than three years ago, on 1st July 1999. As with any constitutional change of that magnitude, there will inevitably be a settling in period. No doubt assisted by the sterling work of the Scottish Constitutional Convention, the transition from Westminster to Edinburgh has been without any obvious difficulty. I am of the view that it went very smoothly, with the doubters completely confounded, much as I suspect that the same doubters have been confounded by the successful introduction of the euro across most of the EEC. It is noteworthy that political parties that opposed the referendum and the setting up of a Scottish Parliament now accept that it is here to stay.

I am a little puzzled by the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, that there is a need for a referendum at this stage on the continuation of the Scottish Parliament. Despite the case that he has put tonight, it is likely that a goodly proportion of my fellow Scots will share my bafflement.

Of course it is inevitable with any parliament or any elected body that there will be those who do not approve of all the outcomes. That is a fairly understandable tenet of democracy. However, not liking outcomes or having unreasonably high expectations unmet does not detract from the fact that the existence of a Scottish Parliament remains a matter of great pride for most Scots. Had there been real public dissatisfaction, I have no doubt that the outcome of the 2001 general election would have been much less one-sided. Equally, I am certain that the Scottish public will demonstrate their continuing engagement next May when the Scottish Parliament comes up for re-election.

For those reasons and many more, many of them as enunciated by the noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie, I cannot really see the point of proposing a further referendum, certainly not a referendum so soon after the setting up of the Parliament. As has been said, it is not a part of the political heritage of this country that we seek to govern by continuing referenda.

I believe that government works best and delivers best when decisions are taken as close to the public as possible. I believe that the "one size fits all" policy is not the best way forward for the countries that make up the UK. The existence of a Scottish Parliament and a Scottish Executive enable Scottish Ministers to follow the priorities set by the people of Scotland on devolved matters. I would also argue that there is now adequate ministerial and parliamentary scrutiny of the devolved machinery of government in Scotland. I strongly suspect that, prior to 1999, vast chunks of the old Scottish Office never saw a Minister much less a Member of Parliament. The Scottish Parliament has allowed some 30 or 35 Acts to reach Royal Assent, when it is unlikely that four or five distinctly Scottish Bills could possibly have been dealt with at Westminster since 1999, such is the pressure on UK parliamentary time.

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One common criticism is the different outcomes in Scotland from the rest of the UK, for example on tuition fees or on care of the elderly. These different outcomes in Scotland are not anything other than a strength and a vindication of the system, and the system as it was intended to be. I say that despite the fact that I personally may not agree with each and every bit of legislation or every policy of the Executive. I agree with my noble friend Lord Hogg of Cumbernauld that there is too much concentration on the central belt. I think that much more attention could be paid to Gaelic culture and the Gaelic language, for example. I also do not agree with the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002. As has been said, much more attention should have been paid to the pre-legislative scrutiny. I am an unashamed supporter of the regulation of hunting—the so-called middle way—as evidenced by my voting twice in the past 12 months in your Lordships' House for that course of action.

On the other hand, a very long overdue measure is in hand in the Scottish Parliament—the Land Reform (Scotland) Bill. Coming from crofting stock, I could hardly other than welcome what will be an important contribution to community empowerment in Scotland's rural areas. As far as I am concerned, Part 3 of that Bill correctly alters the balance of power between the crofting community and the landowner. I believe that that Bill properly represents the view of the majority of Scots and certainly the view of the majority of highlanders.

Until the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, mentioned Comrade Mugabe I had not intended to join the vociferous few who the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour, thought might talk about the Highland clearances. I respectfully tell the noble Lord that I think he was over-egging the pudding in referring to Mugabe in this context. I believe that those who burned out my forebears in the Highlands of Scotland and Sutherland and drove them to the inhospitable shores of Assynt, to eke out a living, or on to the immigrant ships had much more in common with Mugabe than do the proponents of that Bill.

No parliament will ever satisfy everyone. I can disagree with the outcomes, as clearly does the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, but it would not occur to me that we should hold a referendum to abolish the Edinburgh Parliament because I do not like those outcomes. As a nurse, I do not much like the entirely artificial difference made in this Parliament, for financial reasons, between personal care and nursing care, but I do not want a referendum to abolish this House or another place.

What the people do have the absolute right to do if they do not like the policies or legislation that has been passed is to remove the politicians from power at an election—not to abolish or attack the institution itself. Elections are the best and the only referenda now necessary whether for Edinburgh or for Westminster. Meanwhile, the institution of the Scottish Parliament—a young parliament and a parliament on a learning curve—should have the support of all of us.

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9.54 p.m.

Earl Ferrers: My Lords, your Lordships may wonder why an Englishman should come bounding into a debate on Scotland. I can only say that I once was the only Englishman among 17 Welshmen taking part in a debate during the passage of the Welsh Language Act. That was a fairly formidable experience. Therefore, I suppose that if one is the only Englishmen among 13 Scotsmen, one can say that one is, as an engineer would say, "case hardened".

However, I am not sure that I am the only Englishman. The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, masquerades as a Scotsman by his first name, but the second part of his name would seem to make him indelibly an Englishman. I have always thought of him as an Englishman. Therefore, I shall be interested to see which way he jumps, as it were, tonight.

I can understand anyone who wants their Parliament to be situated close to them. I do not want to get involved in that argument. I happen not to approve of the idea of devolution. Some 25 years ago I spoke from the Front Bench to oppose the then Labour government's Scottish devolution Bill. However, as I say, I can understand anyone who wants their Parliament to be situated close to their home and I do not want to get involved in that argument.

I wish to make only three points. The first concerns the cost of the new building which has been referred to on many occasions. My noble friend Lord Palmer said that it was estimated to cost £40 million. The figure is now £280 million. Some people say that the figure is expected to be £350 million and others say £500 million. My noble friend Lord Monro asked how the total sum has been allowed to escalate. Who is in charge of any contract or architect? Who approves the additional expenditure? No government department could ever exceed its budget to that extent. I wonder how this situation arose. There must be someone, surely, who says, "That is all right; you can spend another £100 million". Will the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, be good enough to tell us about that if I can have his attention for half a minute? I should not wish to interrupt his discussion with his noble friend on the Front Bench. As I said, will he be kind enough to tell us who has the responsibility for saying, "You may spend £100 million and more on this building"? One wonders where all the money comes from, who is responsible for it, and who pays. I assumed that the Scottish Parliament paid, but the noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie, said that Westminster pays. Presumably, that means that the Chancellor of the Exchequer finds the money.

I wondered whether any English money went towards the scheme. I presume that a lot does. It is odd that when anything relates in any way to what might loosely be described as democracy or democratic rights, somehow the money appears. There may be a row for a few days but then the coffers open and the money appears, yet governments find it difficult to find money for schools, railways and nurses. The noble Baroness, Lady Michie of Gallanach, mentioned

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Portcullis House and the Dome. I quite agree that those two come almost in the same category; certainly, Portcullis House does as it greatly exceeded the expenditure limits set for it.

Secondly, if that is the experience in Scotland, we do not want to see it repeated in England. I seem to be referring often to the noble Baroness, Lady Michie of Gallanach, but she made a lot of comments that stimulated one's interest. She asked the Government not to make the Scots apply every year for block grants. I can understand that, but I also understand that the Scots per capita get more money than do the English per capita. Perhaps the Scots will lose out in that regard.

The noble Baroness then suggested giving the English regional government. As a good Scots lady I cannot see why she wants to interfere in the English set-up. I am merely interfering in this debate because it affects England. We are all part of the United Kingdom and what Scotland does affects England. We do not want in England another layer of government and bureaucracy, with all the expense that that would involve. The eight new regional council buildings proposed for the next three years presumably all have some kind of budget, and presumably all of those budgets will be exceeded. We shall also presumably see what the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, described as "third eleven" politicians strutting around preening themselves and trying to justify themselves. In his view that was a good description—and I merely repeat his description. We do not want such an increase in bureaucracy here. I hope that the Government will not import into England the experience of the Scottish Parliament, particularly in relation to the building.

My third point involves the position of the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister is always the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom—of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. In the middle of all of the hunting hoo-hah that took place about 18 months ago, the Prime Minister went on television and gave the assurance that, once the hunting problem was over, so long as he was Prime Minister, there would be no action taken against shooting or fishing. That was supposed to give a certain amount of comfort to a certain number of people, and I believe that it did. However, the Scottish Parliament need take no notice of that whatever. I asked the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, when she was a Minister, whether the Scottish Parliament could introduce a Bill despite the fact that the Prime Minister had said that that would not happen. The answer was that the Scottish Parliament can do whatever it likes. Therefore, any comfort or assurance that the Prime Minister can give cannot affect Scotland. That is terrible. He is the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and if he gives such an assurance, it should cover all of the United Kingdom. That is one of the results of this great cavalry charge to get devolution under way, and that is sad.

10.2 p.m.

The Earl of Mar and Kellie: My Lords, before answering some of the many points that have been

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raised, I pay tribute to my noble friends Lady Michie and Lord Mackie for their defence of the Scottish Parliament in the face of a fierce onslaught.

The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, discussed voter apathy. It involves a dangerous mix of contentment and disaffection. However, I believe that an enraged electorate will vote. The noble Lord complained about economic growth. However, economic growth is not set by that Parliament. It may have to live with the fact that economic growth is generated elsewhere. Similarly, I believe that it was the Scottish Parliament rather than the executive that chose to overrule the Rural Development Committee.

The noble Lord, Lord Monro of Langholm, asked about Liberal Democrat Members. I say modestly that they have provided justice, education and rural affairs quite adequately. In particular, Ross Finnie did extremely well in relation to rural affairs. Jim Wallace has done remarkably well on the three occasions so far that he has been acting First Minister.

The noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour, and my noble friend Lord Mackie raised the experience of new MSPs. We are doing rather well to have progressed to the point at which we have a First Minister who has not been a Westminster MP. That is commendable.

The noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, talked about the block grant. The Parliament is being built with the block grant and the people of Scotland will suffer it or enjoy it in that context.

I remind the noble Baroness, Lady Strange, that these Benches supported her in her campaign to halve the Highland council area. It was interesting to hear that two amendments before, Clackmannanshire was an appropriate size for a local authority and that, two amendments later, the Highland council, which is only the size of Wales or Belgium, was also an appropriate size for a Scottish local authority.

To the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour, and the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, on the subject of crofters, perhaps I may point out that this Parliament gave the individual crofter the right to buy his croft at a time of his own choosing. I suggest that the legislation in Part 3 of the land reform Act is progressing on that precedence.


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