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Lord Kingsland: I thank the Minister very much indeed for his reply. Will the Committee have the opportunity to see the text of this memorandum of understanding at some early stage in the proceedings, perhaps at Report stage? The Minister also mentioned guidance, but by whom, to whom and about what? Perhaps the Minister can enlighten the House about that and give some idea as to when we might see a draft of such guidance.
Lord Rooker: We shall make sure that we publish everything that we possibly can. The guidance will come from the Secretary of State. It will be open to him to consult widely on it. It naturally follows that that he will want to consult the law enforcement and prosecuting authorities. I shall take advice on the memorandum and come back to the noble Lord on that matter. I do not know whether it will be in the public domain, although I suspect that most of it will be. I do not know the answer to that question, but I shall take advice and return to it later.
Lord Kingsland: To the extent that the director will be exercising his discretion to do or not to do something on the basis of the memorandum, will the Minister agree that it is important that it is in the public domain?
Lord Rooker: As I said earlier, I do not know whether all of it will be in the public domain. I said that
we would put everything we possibly can into that area. I indicated that the director will be guided by the number of cases he takes on as to the importance he gives to the matter. In addition, there is the question of his own resources. One does not know the number of cases which will go to the director. Consideration is now being given to the kinds of cases to be referred to him. We are some way down the road towards the agency being set up. The cases he takes up will depend on his resources. It will be for the director to explain in due course the decisions which he has taken.I return to what I said earlier. We will put everything we can into the public domain, but I cannot say that the whole of the memorandum will be included. I do not know.
Lord Kingsland: I am most grateful to the Minister for that further reply. He will understand that we will wish to return to this matter at Report stage. I accept that the noble Lord will do his best to provide the Committee with further information. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.30 p.m.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville moved Amendment No. 9:
- After Clause 5, insert the following new clause—
The noble Lord said: It may be helpful if I describe the provenance and pedigree of the two proposed new clauses which stand in my name on the Marshalled List. They were tabled in another place on behalf of the Commons Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs, which is in the midst of an inquiry into the financing of terrorism in Northern Ireland which it has not yet concluded. The committee did, however, publish an interim report on 14th February in advance of the Report stage of the Bill in the Commons, on 26th and 27th February. The interim report described the committee's visit to Dublin as part of its inquiry because it felt that the visit and its findings had relevance to this Bill.
During that visit, committee members made the acquaintance of a similar agency to the assets recovery agency envisaged by the Bill; namely, the Criminal Assets Bureau, set up in the Republic in 1996, with a staff including officers of An Garda Siochána, Customs officers, tax inspectors, social security officials, professional lawyers and forensic accountants. Over the past five years, the bureau has recovered 21 million punts' worth of assets—aficionados can translate that figure into euros—through proceeds of crime actions. It has made social welfare savings of 1.25 million punts; and, to date, it has collected 28 million punts out of a total of 56 million punts demanded as tax on criminal assets. It is also said to have had a powerful deterrent effect among criminal classes which had previously considered themselves invulnerable.
In the interests of simplicity, perhaps I may quote paragraphs 6 and 7 of the committee's brief interim report:
The proposed new clauses standing in my name are intended to introduce the same concepts into British legislation. I should make it clear that I have repeated verbatim the new clauses tabled in the Commons. Imitation is, of course, the sincerest form of flattery, but the majority of the Select Committee are survivors from the same Select Committee in the previous Parliament and are thus experienced in Northern Ireland and Irish affairs, and its chairman, Michael
The other place had a good debate on Report on 27th February on these clauses and other matters, which lasted for at least an hour and a quarter (cols. 748-768 of the Official Report). The Minister, Mr Bob Ainsworth, wound up the debate briefly, the final paragraph of his speech being devoted specifically to these new clauses. He did an exemplary job of making it clear that, while he was not against the new clauses, he was not fully in favour of them either. However, he did say that he would do his best to ensure that the Government could do something that was effective if that was in any way possible. Since that amounted effectively to taking the matter away for consideration, the new clauses reappear in this House by way of probing amendments to verify where further consideration has so far reached. That seems to me a not unreasonable question, as the Minister in another place, while being even-handed, was unspecific, except implicitly, as to what he liked about the clauses and was explicitly unspecific about what he did not like.
In conclusion, perhaps I may pay brief tribute to the courage of officers of the same backgrounds in Northern Ireland as serve in the bureau in Dublin. In the previous Parliament, the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee, on which I then served, investigated the massive smuggling of fuel oil between the two jurisdictions within the island of Ireland, with a centre of gravity in South Armagh. I am, therefore, recently familiar with the bravery of Customs officers in Northern Ireland whose Treasury Minister I once was. More than a decade ago, when I was serving as a Minister in Northern Ireland, I could not speak too highly of the courage of Inland Revenue officers in terms of other forms of tax fraud in particular parts of the Province. I recall one occasion when we conducted a very large number of raids simultaneously, often on professional premises, backed up, of course, by the security forces. The papers seized, as with the late Mr Al Capone in Chicago in the 1930s, proved amply an inattention to tax detail on the part of taxpayers, or perhaps more precisely non-taxpayers, who had believed that violence had placed them above the law.
I recognise that, as with, in John Masters' account, the half dozen Gurkha soldiers in World War Two who volunteered to jump out of aeroplanes even before it was explained to them that they would also be assisted by a parachute, the fact that there were volunteers for this sort of work a dozen years ago might make some say that the new clauses are otiose. However, the Irish experience indicates that anonymity and protection for officials and professional investigators in the bureau are conducive both to recruitment and to productive results. I beg to move.
"INVESTIGATIONS: ANONYMITY OF AGENCY STAFF AND OTHERS
(1) Where the Director is satisfied that there is good reason to believe that the conduct of an investigation or the safety of a nominated officer might be prejudiced if the identity of that officer were known, he may determine that the nominated officer shall have the benefit of anonymity.
(2) For the purposes of this section, a nominated officer is—
(a) a member of staff of the Agency, or
(b) an accredited financial investigator.
(3) Where, apart from this section, a nominated officer may be required for the purpose of exercising his functions in the conduct of an investigation to produce or show any written authority or otherwise to identify himself, a nominated officer with benefit of anonymity shall—
(a) not be required to produce or show any such authority or to so identify himself for the purpose of exercising his functions, and
(b) be accompanied by a constable who shall, on request by a person affected, identify himself as a constable and state that he is accompanied by a nominated officer.
(4) Where a nominated officer with benefit of anonymity exercises his functions in the conduct of an investigation in writing, such function shall be exercised in the name of the Agency and not in the name of the nominated officer with benefit of anonymity.
(5) Any document relating to proceedings arising out of an investigation where a nominated officer had benefit of anonymity shall not reveal the identity or address of a nominated officer with benefit of anonymity.
(6) For the purposes of this section, "investigation" means any investigation specified in section 336 other than a money laundering investigation."
"The Republic of Ireland's Criminal Assets Bureau deals with sophisticated and dangerous criminals, some of whom have paramilitary connections. In a number of cases these individuals, prior to the establishment of the Bureau, had evaded the law enforcement agencies by verbal and physical intimidation of both witnesses and officials. We were told that on occasion extreme violence had been used. Officers working for the Bureau are dealing with cases which it would frequently be difficult to pursue through other means without exposing staff to considerable personal risk.
The CAB is able to pursue these individuals both safely and effectively because its civilian personnel are protected by statutory anonymity. The Criminal Assets Bureau Act 1996 provides for officials to be vouched for by a member of the Garda rather than disclosing any warrant of appointment while engaged in a search or other activities; for the identity of the official to be disclosed only to the judge during court proceedings; and for the name of the Bureau to be substituted for the individual officer's name in certain correspondence. Disclosure of the identity of members, or former members, of staff, or of their families, is punishable by up to three years' imprisonment"
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