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Baroness Miller of Hendon: At Second Reading I did not like this clause. I thought that the idea of making partners come for interviews—especially as it appears as though they are not forced to take a job—appears to put pressure on them beforehand. It was totally unnecessary and I am amazed with myself that I did not bring back an amendment. The noble Baroness's amendment certainly makes it better, but that does not mean that I like the clause any more.

Lord Sharman: I, too, do not like the clause. I have tabled Amendment No. 262 but I support everything that the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, said about what is wrong with the clause. I seek the same clarifications.

Lord McCarthy: Where is the pressure intended to be placed? Presumably, the partner is being brought along to the interview because it helps to put pressure on one of them or both of them to go out and get a job. Is the pressure on the claimant of benefit, on the partner of the claimant or on both of them? If the pressure is on either of them, is there any research-based evidence that there is abuse?

Lord Bassam of Brighton: I want to pick up that point. At the outset, my understanding is that the arrangement is not about putting pressure on either the claimant or their partner. Essentially, the measure is there to be helpful. In explaining the Government's thinking, I should be able to demonstrate that.

The amendments will prevent partners of recipients of certain benefits from being required to take part in work-focused interviews, unless there are jobs that are suitable for them. That, in itself, is an important point on which to focus. Clearly, it is only right that in some circumstances—in most circumstances—one would hope that any work that was available for the partner would be suitable. It is of course important to be able to find out what that work might be.

In essence, the amendment would mean that we would not be able to require partners to take part in interviews if there were no suitable jobs for them. Work-focused interviews support the Government's objective of promoting work as the best form of welfare, by providing everyone of working age with the opportunity of finding out about the help that is available to them to find work.

The purpose of the interview is not simply to discuss specific jobs or to look at each job that might be available; it is to explore with the individual their potential for work and to advise them about the wide range of help and information on the benefits and services that are available to them to help them to get into work. It is there to assist, help, advise and guide them about what they might want to do in the future.

The interview will provide a personal and tailored approach and it is intended to encourage partners to take steps towards labour market participation by

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exploring ways in which they can overcome any barriers that might exist to prevent them from looking for work.

I accept that, depending on their circumstances, some jobs may not be suitable for those individuals. We want to treat people as individuals and we do not want to restrict the jobs that may be considered suitable for any individual. That is precisely why the work-focused interview will be an opportunity for them to discuss the type of work that they may be able to do and learn about the help, services and benefits that are available to help them.

The discussion—it will be a discussion—may well result in a person realising that their skills and experience mean that they may be able now, or perhaps at some point in the future, to do a wider range of jobs than was initially thought. For some partners, work may be entirely inappropriate at the time that they are required to attend the interview. However, they should not be written-off or cast out of the labour market. They may wish to work at some point in the future. The purpose of the interview is to keep them in touch with the world of work and the opportunities that it might provide for them.

We believe that it is right that people take part in those interviews and are made aware of the help that is available so that they are aware of the options that are open to them at the time of the interview and at some future date. Whether or not partners are in a position to work, no other requirement will be placed upon them apart from taking part in the work-focused interview. Any action that a partner may choose to take beyond taking part in an interview—for example, finding work or joining a New Deal programme—will be entirely voluntary. Therefore, he will not be forced, cajoled or pushed into work. A partner who wishes to take up the offer of help to find a job will be asked to attend a further interview. That appears to make sense. It follows on if we are trying to advise and help, and we believe that it is right. It will provide time for people to concentrate on discussing specific jobs that might be suitable for the partner.

I hope that Members of the Committee will be pleased to know that a system of safeguards will be built into the process to ensure that people do not lose benefit where the circumstances of the individual mean that the timing of the interview may not be beneficial or where the partner has no reasonable prospects of working. An adviser will be able to defer or waive a meeting where it would be inappropriate for a partner to have a discussion in particular circumstances or at a particular time.

I do not believe that taking part in an interview is an onerous or unreasonable requirement. We are asking only that partners come to discuss their situations and their work aspirations with an adviser—that is, someone with expertise—so that they may be made aware of the practical and financial help that is on offer. There will be no absolute requirement to seek work under this measure.

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That is the Government's intention and our reasoning for introducing the measure. I hope that it offers a large measure of reassurance. It is not seen as a coercive approach by the department; rather, it is a facilitative measure to enable and to help and to ensure that the partner is kept in touch with the world of work if that is what he or she wants. There is no pressure or inducement to that end. We are simply attempting to be helpful to the partner.

Baroness Turner of Camden: Before the noble Lord sits down, he says that the measure is not intended to be coercive, but would people lose benefit? In particular, would a person in receipt of severe disablement allowance, which one receives only if one is severely disabled, lose benefit if he failed to show up for an interview? That is one of our concerns. People are likely to lose a whole list of benefits if they do not show up, and that is the pressure about which we are all concerned.

Lord Bassam of Brighton: I take my noble friend's point. Ultimately, that sanction has existed in legislation for a long time but it must be borne in mind that it is very rarely used.

Three opportunities are provided for attendance at an interview. The interview will not ultimately have to take place in an office. The adviser may well suggest that it takes place in the partner's home if that is more appropriate. The work-focused interview will be operated with extreme sensitivity. It is all about assistance and help. It is about keeping in touch with people and enabling them to make contact with the world of work, if that is what they want. It is not intended to bring heavy pressure or to try to force people off benefits in a coercive way into the world of work.

It is worth adding that the sanction does not cover all benefit. It covers only 20 per cent of the single person rate, which amounts to approximately £10.79. Therefore, it is not as though the whole benefit will be taken away. It is a partial withdrawal and one that is used only very much as a last resort.

Lord Wedderburn of Charlton: Before my noble friend departs from, with great respect, those very bad points, the fact that a sanction is bad is not reconciled for me by the fact that it is rarely used. That is irrelevant. If it is bad, it is bad. My noble friend said that the sanction would cover only about 20 per cent and not the whole benefit. But these are very vulnerable people.

However, I want to congratulate my noble friend since this is perhaps the last major amendment that we shall debate. He deserves a prize because throughout this Grand Committee there has been a competition between my noble friends the Ministers and the Bill. My noble friends the Ministers have regularly proved that they are more sensitive, more civilised and more scrupulous than the Bill. Each time we have asked why something should not be put in the Bill, they have said, "That is not what we mean at all but, of course, we cannot put it in the Bill". I understood that Ministers are not allowed to do so but that they do not want that

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to happen. My noble friend Lord Sainsbury will remember saying he did not want this kind of thing to happen. Also my noble friend in his exposition should receive a top prize, perhaps a trip around the world, or some suitable prize in the competition between the Ministers and the Bill.

This is a serious point because in looking at Report the Government should pay more attention to their civilised Ministers than to their uncivilised draftsmen of the Bill. The Government should look at my noble friend's speech very carefully and see whether they cannot perhaps give an inkling in the clause that these vulnerable people will not feel that they were being pressured to take unsuitable jobs.

My noble friend says they will not be pressed or coerced to take unsuitable jobs. I do not see even a hint of that in the Bill. It may be that those who administer this scheme are always sufficiently sensitive not to have that effect. I believe the history of social security administration does not show that we can be absolutely confident that that is always the case. Social security is something where individuals sometimes suffer from their vulnerability and feel coerced, and that will happen here in some cases.

Some inkling of my noble friend's civilised approach should surely appear not just in regulations, of which we know not at this stage, but in the Bill itself. Let the Government pay heed to their Ministers and come back on Report with a number of amendments that the things Ministers have said they want can be at least suggested in the Bill.

5 p.m.

Baroness Turner of Camden: I noted what the Minister had to say and I am not at all happy about it. I still believe that the Bill as it stands contains a coercive element. It has been explained very clearly by my noble friend Lord Wedderburn how my noble friends and I feel about this provision in the Bill. This is something to which we will certainly return on Report. I am not at all satisfied with the response that has been given this afternoon, but in the meantime I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

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