| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I am grateful for the way in which the noble Baroness raised this issue and to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, for his words about me personally. On the policy point, I shall deal with the issues that have been raised.
First, no civil servant has instructed me to do anything. It does not work that way round; I instruct civil servants. One of the instructions—this will be confirmed by the DSS and MAFF—that civil servants who brief me regularly received, so far as parliamentary activity is concerned, involves the fact that I cannot stand at the Dispatch Box and read out paragraph after paragraph of narrative without putting in my own bit; I therefore prefer bullet points. They usually get the instruction that if there is something that I should say precisely—that is, because of the legal consequences—that should be spelt out, and if there is something in the background that I should not say, they should make sure that that is there as well. From that point of view, the instruction flows in exactly the opposite way to that which people might have suspected. That is that matter out of the way.
I turn to the other point that the noble Baroness raised, before turning to the issue of substance. Yes, we did debate Amendment No. 163, but we should not run away with the idea that we debated it extensively. The debate fills less than one column in Hansard. I do not call that an extensive debate. The whole debate runs from half way down column 856 and concludes before the end of column 857. That was the substance of the debate on that amendment.
Leaving aside the article in the Guardian for a moment, I defy anyone who reads the briefing that the Guardian used—that is, the notes that were there for me on the amendment's purpose and effect; the speaking notes, some of which I used; and the PACE information, which I used extensively—and what is in Hansard to substantiate any claim that I misled, deliberately or otherwise, the House or the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. I refute that absolutely and without any qualification whatever.
The fact is that on the issue that we were discussing about detention officers, we have no secret plans to privatise any part of the police service. I do not think that the briefing would lead anyone to that conclusion. There is no question of misleading Parliament. The position is that the Home Office has received representations from a number of police forces—the figure is somewhere round about 10—which were and are considering contracting out custody functions to private providers on efficiency grounds. The Government have therefore been considering whether the Bill should allow forces the same opportunity to give appropriate police powers to private-sector providers if functions are contracted out—that is the choice of the police authority, not the Home Office—as police authorities have in relation to civilians. It is already the case that they can contract out.
It is not even true to say that no final decisions have yet been made. The suggestion has been dealt with by Home Office police Ministers and others but it has not been approved within the government decision-making machinery—the LP committee. There is no clearance for it. There is no plan. There is no secret plan. But discussions take place in government all the while. And in the context of the debate, I held nothing back. When the Bill reaches another place, it is possible that a government amendment may be put forward to that effect. I do not know. There is no government policy on the issue as I speak, and, therefore, there is no certainty whatever about this matter. It would not be to anyone's benefit if we had to go through what might or might not happen.
However, the fact is that if any proposals came forward, they would first have to be approved by the Commons and placed in the Bill. Then, as I repeatedly inform my colleagues in the Home Office regarding this Bill, anything that we want must receive consent in the House of Lords. "Consent" is a word that my noble friend the Chief Whip has impressed upon me since my arrival in this House. This place works by consent. It is fairly obvious that it must, given the arithmetic of the representation here. Therefore, proposals would have to be approved by this House and nothing would be done in secret.
The type of functions being considered are analogous to those already carried out by private sector employees working in privately run prisons. But it would be for the police forces to choose how they use the support staff. I repeat the central point that I made in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia—anyone can cross-check the notes that I had. I made it absolutely clear that, under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act codes, the people who carry out such searches are in the main doctors and nurses. They are medical practitioners and they do so only under the authority of a senior police officer. Only in a few extreme circumstances, where a doctor or nurse is not available, will the detention or custody officers carry out that function with the safeguards in Section 55 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act and under the aegis of a senior police officer. Therefore, the idea that in future any Tom, Dick or Harry would be asked to carry out that work is absolute nonsense. It would not happen. All the safeguards would apply in all the circumstances.
I turn to my final point. The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, asked a reasonable question regarding the consultation on the new or reviewed codes of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. I said that, first, I would ensure that whatever was available would either be placed in the Library or would be sent to the noble Lord. At the time, I was not sure whether all the codes were fully public because they are large volumes. Secondly, because the codes are under review, I did not know whether they had been put out for consultation. I indicated that they would not be put out before today's Third Reading but, at present, I still do not know whether that is the case. However, I have every expectation that it is. I believe that it would be sensible for the Government to ensure that the codes are put out for consultation at, before or by the time this issue is dealt with at the Bill's Committee stage in the House of Commons. MPs are bound to demand sight of the consultation on the PACE codes. I said that I would provide them if I could and that, if I could not, I would explain why.
That is the position. The Nolan code of practice does not come into it. Not only did I not tell any lies; I did not mislead any Member of this House either deliberately or by accident. I am not using this as an excuse, but I have not been asked any questions about this matter either today or during the previous stages of the Bill, and the issue was not relevant.
However, there is no government policy for me to announce or defend in that respect because there is no decision. There is not even a policy decision in the Home Office. The request was put to us initially by the police themselves when they saw the White Paper and the Bill. Some police forces are already considering contracting out some of those services, as is their right. That is the situation. Although no one has said it here, I deeply resent the idea, as set out in the first sentence of the article in the Guardian, that the Government have—that is, I have—deliberately misled Parliament. I refute that absolutely.
Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, in no way would I wish to cast any doubt on the good faith of an
extremely honest and direct Minister. But, in conclusion, I must read to him one sentence from the instructions that were given to him on the amendment to which I referred. I quote:
- "We are resisting this amendment on the grounds that we want designated persons to take on those very duties which are keeping police constables from policing on the streets".
3.45 p.m.
Lord Rooker: My Lords, I do not accept that. The whole debate about community support officers, whether they be detention officers, escort officers, investigation officers or scenes of crime officers, has been predicated on that basis. It was deployed at length in the White Paper which was put to this House in December regarding the civilianisation of the police. But the noble Baroness did not read the next sentence in her quotation:
- "Section 55 of PACE contains numerous safeguards for the conduct of intimate searches which designated . . . officers will have to follow".
There is already provision in the Bill for designated persons to have regard to PACE codes of practice, and that makes them accountable for their dealings with suspects. The codes require a doctor or a nurse to carry out the search, and it can be carried out only if a senior officer decides that it is necessary. A detention officer would carry out the search only if a doctor or nurse were not available and if there were reasonable grounds for believing that someone had hidden something on his person, such as a razor blade, that could cause harm. That is the fact of the matter.
Lord Hughes of Woodside: My Lords, I have no wish to prolong this matter, but the Leader of the Opposition, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, in a very robust and charming way, spoke about a smell being attached to my noble friend Lord Rooker and the Government. In view of what has been said, will he perhaps now be gracious enough to withdraw those remarks?
On Question, Bill read a third time.
Next Section
Back to Table of Contents
Lords Hansard Home Page