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Lord Elton moved Amendment No. 1:
- After Clause 1, insert the following new clause—
The noble Lord said: My Lords, somewhat to my surprise, I do not have to focus noble Lords' attention on detention officers because it is clearly focused there already. They are the subject of the group of amendments to which I wish to speak. In moving Amendment No. 1, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 2 and 3.
Your Lordships will be aware of the proposal for persons employed by the police forces but not equipped with powers of policemen to be instituted in the Bill. It is, in fact, in Clause 35(2). Noble Lords will also be aware—I regret that I did not embrace it in this group of amendments—of the proposal to introduce community safety accreditation schemes with persons similarly equipped with minimal powers under that clause and of the reservations which many of us have about those proposals.
The disquiet which we felt—I told your Lordships of this when I spoke during the previous stage of the Bill—was shared by those who responded to an inquiry by the Metropolitan Police as to their reaction to the proposals. At that stage I quoted from a summary of the reply in which it was said of five distinct police forces that, although they welcomed them as a possible improvement, they raised concerns that,
Having read those words, I looked at the ways in which the Home Secretary might exert such a ring-fencing move and found that in the Police Act 1996 there are two powers which could be used for this purpose. They are the subject of my two paving amendments. The first is in Section 38(1), which gives the Home Secretary power to establish levels of performance, to be called "performance targets". The second is in Section 46(4), which states that,
Those are two clear instruments which the Home Secretary would be able to use. I was encouraged by the words used by the Minister a moment ago in his vigorous and convincing rebuttal. He said, of detention officers—I start in the middle of a sentence—"if contracted out; that is the choice of the police authorities, not of the Government". I find that reassuring.
All I want from the Minister is an assurance that these routes will not be used by a Home Secretary of this Government for the purpose of forcing upon a chief officer of police the necessity to employ a particular proportion of any of these categories of person within his police force. I hope that is sufficient and clear. I beg to move.
Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, I rise briefly to say that we support generally the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Elton.
Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, lengthy remarks by me are superfluous. This is a matter which has been debated on two previous occasions. The concern is a real one. It would be enormously helpful both to the House and, indeed, to people at large in the country if
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I hope I can satisfy the noble Lord, Lord Elton. I understand entirely the noble Lord's anxiety, and the anxiety which prompted the amendments. However, I can assure him that there is no intention to impose anything on police authorities or chief officers so far as the employment of civilian staff is concerned; that is, no quotas, no levels and no thresholds. I hope that reassures the noble Lord. I do not believe in any event that the amendments would achieve what the noble Lord hopes they would achieve.
Amendment No. 1 on performance targets would amend Section 38(1) of the Police Act 1996, but that section as amended would begin:
The amendments are misplaced. Police authorities do not have the power to insist that chief officers employ a particular number or proportion of designated or accredited staff or special constables. In any event, the Secretary of State could not, even if he or she wanted to, direct them to do something that they have no power to do. He could not issue that direction. We could not, for instance, direct a police authority to recruit a certain number, a quota, of different types of officers because that is a function of the chief officer, not the police authority. That distinction is clear. I see members of police authorities nodding. They understand the distinction.
The fact is that we do not intend to set quotas for forces relating to a proportion of their force which must be made up of community support offices and Specials. Nor is it our intention to set such figures for forces as to how many community safety organisations they accredit. It is, as set out in Clause 35, at the discretion of chief officers as to whether or not they recruit and designate those people.
Let me finally nail this other canard that has arisen. This is not about policing on the cheap, nor about replacing police officers with community support officers. I would argue that our commitment to delivering record numbers of police officers belies any such suggestion. It is the intention of the Government to provide by March next year the resources for 130,000 police officers UK-wide. This March we have achieved record levels. Those two points have been acknowledged in an earlier debate. Then it is a matter for us to see where we need to go in terms of policing numbers.
We are trying to establish measures which work. It is not a question of cost or of trying to get policing on the cheap. We are trying to establish something which is of value to police forces up and down the country if
My final point is one with which I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Elton, will agree. He has been in this position and understands what this is about. When either of our two parties have been in government we have tried to use civilianisation to free-up fully trained, qualified expertise from police officers for front line duties. I have always thought that there was a consensus on that issue. we have debated it long and hard in this House. For example, the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, has encouraged us in the past to divest police officers of the responsibility for escorting abnormal loads. We have had that from Members of our own Benches.
Through a process of sensible civilianisation where right and appropriate, and where the chief officer wants to do it, we are trying to ensure a freeing-up of core police time for front line duties. We are not trying to have policing done more cheaply. That is not the intention of this legislation. It is about making good use of the resource that we can deploy. Having heard that reassurance, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to—
Lord Elton: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, he has been convincing on Amendment No. 1 and has obviously taken on board Amendment No. 3, but there was no mention of the effects of Section 46(4) of the 1996 Act, which concerns the serious issue of grant being withheld unless it is applied in a specific way. I shall continue on that point for a moment longer because I think that the Minister is searching for some information he may have which will make it easier for him to reply to the point which I have made eloquently, at length and persuasively. It will be difficult to continue this address to your Lordships on such a slender basis for much longer. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord is now possessed of the facts.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: My Lords, I take note of what the noble Lord said. I have re-read the amendment and can see the issue of concern. However, this has to be viewed as a package. It is not the intention of the Government to use the section in the way in which the noble Lord suggests. This comes as a package. I am grateful to the noble Lord for acknowledging that I have been convincing on Amendments Nos. 1 and 3. However, this has to be seen in that context. It is not the desire of the Government to direct in the way in which he suggests. I suspect that one could read it in that way if one had a particularly conspiratorial frame of mind, but that is not our intention.
Lord Elton: My Lords, as the Minister has been extremely patient, perhaps I may ask his indulgence to give him the opportunity not to say that it is not the intention of the Government but that the Government will not use this device, in which case I should be happy to withdraw my amendment.
"PERFORMANCE TARGETS
In section 38(1) of the 1996 Act (setting of performance targets) after "may" there shall be inserted "and to section (Limitation of powers of the Secretary of State) of the Police Reform Act 2002"."
"the local choice proposed in the legislation might be 'eroded by the application of centrally held, ring-fenced funding specifically for one or other of the several options available'",
and they called for local discretion to be allowed.
"the Secretary of State may exercise his discretion by applying such formulae or other rules as he considers appropriate".
What he would apply it to is the payment of grant to police forces.
"Where an objective has been determined under Section 37, the Secretary of State may and to . . . section . . . of the Police Reform Act 2002 direct police authorities to establish levels of performance".
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