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Lord Bradshaw: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, I should say that I have some sympathy for the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Harris. Provided that all the organisations to which the Minister referred are accredited by the police authority as well as the chief constable, I think that I would, as I said, have some sympathy with the noble Lord's view.

I believe that most of the organisations will be local authority-accredited forces or local authority-employed wardens. But in the circumstances, for example, of a local hospital or possibly of a large shopping centre, if the security guards are accredited by the chief constable and that fact is placed before the police authority for approval as a matter of course, then I think that we could go as far as that in accepting the remarks of the Minister.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I cannot offer an amendment to that effect, but—purely off the top of my head, so I may be on dangerous ground again; please do not hold it against me—it is a fact that many of these bodies, in particular concert hall, sports ground and hospital staff, are public or publicly funded authorities which have relationships with local authorities through funding arrangements, management or corporate governance. One can see a route for the funding or public body to ensure that matters are dealt with properly and that the relevant bodies are employing bona fide staff without necessarily specifying that on the face of the Bill. That may provide a route for some of these bodies, although I accept that it would not work for shopping centres.

Planning consents might also offer a route. By and large, if something goes wrong in a shopping centre, most people would blame the local authority for any

25 Apr 2002 : Column 380

policing issues. People may think that they are public properties with public highways, but they are not; they are private properties. One has to take account of that fact when granting planning permission.

Lord Dholakia: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation. For the benefit of the noble Lord, Lord Harris, perhaps I may clarify the position in relation to other organisations for accreditation purposes. I did say that the amendments are designed primarily for local authority-led schemes. However, in case there is any confusion, I shall repeat what I said earlier about the status of those not directly employed. As the Minister pointed out, it would be perfectly feasible and possible to come to a form of contractual arrangement.

The Minister spoke of a large number of other bodies currently operating such schemes. Many local authorities and other bodies employing such officers do so without any police powers specified at the present time. They are perfectly able to carry out their work. All it requires is an application to the local authority to enter into the process whereby accreditation could form part of the basis of their operation.

I am not necessarily satisfied with the Minister's response. If he wishes to explore ways of bringing other bodies within the jurisdiction of local authorities, that could take the matter further when it is discussed in another place. In the meantime, however, this is a matter on which I certainly wish to seek the opinion of the House.

4.24 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 4) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 151; Not-Contents, 127.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS
Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Biffen, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chadlington, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Craig of Radley, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Ferrers, E.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Freeman, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Richmond, B. [Teller]
Haslam, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holderness, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hylton, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Laird, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Quinton, L.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stern, B.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Vivian, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Windlesham, L.
Wolfson, L.
Young, B.

NOT-CONTENTS
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brightman, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Chandos, V.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Condon, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Marsh, L.
May of Oxford, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Monson, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Nicol, B.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thornton, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

25 Apr 2002 : Column 382

4.35 p.m.

[Amendments Nos. 5 to 8 not moved.]

Clause 37 [Accreditation under community safety accreditation schemes]:

[Amendments Nos. 9 to 20 not moved.]

Clause 38 [Supplementary provisions relating to designations and accreditations]:

[Amendments Nos. 21 to 27 not moved.]

Clause 40 [Power to amend Chapter 1]:

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