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Earl Russell: My Lords, I thought that the noble Lord knew his Punch well enough to know that pilots can be dropped.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, the whole thing is a pilot. There can be a national pilot at the request or at the choice of any one of the 43 chief constables in this country—not at the request of the Home Secretary and not ordered by this House. That is the reality. That is how the pilots will originate. We all know that the first pilot will take place in London. The Metropolitan Police want to employ such people this summer. The first pilot will be in London and there is no beating about the bush in relation to that. We know that other chief constables are interested in considering the powers, and all the other 42 chief constables will watch what happens in London.

The reality will be a greater uniformed presence on the streets at the choice of the chief constable; not at the order or the behest of the Home Secretary. I call that a pilot worth having; one that chief constables choose and are not forced into by the Home Secretary.

I genuinely believe that we cannot seriously talk about taking out Clause 40, with all its checks and balances, and putting in this wishy-washy new clause with five little subsections. We must be taken seriously by the other place. The Members of another place will laugh at this House if we take out Clause 40 and send the Bill back with this new clause. I ask noble Lords to show some self-respect and not to press these amendments to a vote.

Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, for his advice as to what to do if we are anxious about the content of legislation, but the anxiety increases as the degree of flexibility increases. The problem is that, in our view, Clause 40 gives too much flexibility. I believe that the noble Earl, Lord Russell, made that point with great force. We have perennial problems with the possibility of what may happen. The brutal reality of government is that no government can commit their successor.

I have already said that the two amendments are separate. I shall deal with the Minister's remarks in that regard first. We do not know what view the other House may take. In this House, we have to consider our decision. It will save time, and may save the Minister some anxiety, if I say that I do not intend to press Amendment No. 29. It is not consequential on Amendment No. 28, although in many ways it would provide a useful supplement to it if Clause 40 were re-inserted in another place.

25 Apr 2002 : Column 391

In proposing these amendments we are considering the full parliamentary procedure and trying to anticipate the outcome. We are trying to consider the kinds of points that may be discussed in the other place, although we cannot dictate them. That is the reason behind this pair of amendments.

The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, said that he hoped that in the future the situation would change and that this is all about achieving more uniformed people on the streets. I absolutely support those remarks. If we are serious about getting uniformed people on the street, in five years we may not need accredited schemes because there will be the proper number of policemen doing the job that ought to be done in the first place. We have argued from Second Reading that the proposals are a poor substitute for proper policemen.

I return to the removal of the Henry VIII clause and the Select Committee for Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform. I would be the first to acknowledge that the affirmative procedure is provided for and that is appropriate. The Minister asks why the Government should take any further notice of the committee's recommendation if the House does not accept it. There is no obligation on the House to accept the committee's recommendation. Still less is there any obligation on another place. In fact, it was not a recommendation but a statement that the committee considers that the powers are appropriate—a valid statement by people with a particular function in that regard.

Decisions on the Bill are not before that committee but are before your Lordships' House at this moment. This House has to make up its mind.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I feel a bit of a new boy here but if the committee is so powerful, has the noble Lord discussed his proposal with any of its members?

Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, the answer is no—I have not. I completely acknowledge the committee's expertise but the fact remains that all the committees of this House are subject to the decisions of this House. That has always been the case and always must be the case, so I do not withdraw my comments.

If the Minister wishes to chance his arm one day and find out whether or not regard is paid to the committee's recommendations—and if he wants to go against its recommendations—he may quickly find the House lining up behind them. There is no obligation on the House to line up behind every recommendation or statement that the committee makes because the House must be the master in this place.

We have had a good debate. I am grateful for the contributions of those whom I have not named. We have had enough discussion.

5.13 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 28) shall be agreed to?

25 Apr 2002 : Column 392

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 165; Not-Contents, 127.

Division No. 2


Aberdare, L.
Addington, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brightman, L.
Brigstocke, B.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Craig of Radley, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Fearn, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Freeman, L.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Hanson, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Haslam, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holderness, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Quinton, L.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L. [Teller]
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stern, B.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Vivian, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wolfson, L.
Young, B.


Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Best, L.
Billingham, B.
Borrie, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L. [Teller]
Chandos, V.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Condon, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Goudie, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Marsh, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Ouseley, L.
Parekh, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thornton, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

25 Apr 2002 : Column 394

5.23 p.m.

[Amendment No. 29 not moved.]

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